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>Another reason people say that is because anti-Zionism is demonstrably correlated with anti-semitism This isnt true at all. The far right, for example, are pr

by pydry 4y ago

>Another reason people say that is because anti-Zionism is demonstrably correlated with anti-semitism This isnt true at all. The far right, for example, are pretty openly antisemitic. If somebody takes pains to distinguish the two on the other hand they're rarely bullshitting. The converse is true though. Attempts to conflate antizionism and antisemitism by are almost always ultimately driven by a staunch belief in Jewish racial supremacy and racism against Arabs. This is reflected by the views of the President of Israel, who is openly against miscegenation. That is a view you can only hold as a committed racist. Few would argue that a white president who doesnt want any white daughters to marry a black man is anything else. For some reason the Israeli state not only gets a pass, they are granted the authority to judge what constitutes racism not only by America, but also by IHRA.

case0x00 4y ago
its definitely true? a lot of leftist groups claim to be anti-zionist but end up discriminating against jews (in the US). many proclaimed anti-zionists end up parroting the same tropes used by antisemites. and then you blame it on some kind of jewish conspiracy?
- pydry 4y ago
  >its definitely true? a lot of leftist groups claim to be anti-zionist but end up discriminating against jews They definitely dont but they always get accused of it. The Israeli state (headed by the guy who openly doesnt want his daughter to marry a black guy) has several organizations (ADL, etc) set up specifically for the purpose of rooting out and mischaracterizing these examples for the purposes of furthering the aims of the state. They also happen to go after real antisemitism. Sometimes. They didnt give a fuck about viktor orban using hook nosed jew tropes in his campaign adverts though, because "friend of israel" > "friend of jews". This isnt a "Jewish conspiracy". After all they go after antizionist Jews too. Even an antizionist holocaust survivor in one case. It's an avowedly pro racism enterprise headed by a committed racist who explained his views without metaphors or tropes using anti-racism and "oh look, tropes!" as a figleaf.
hackerlight 4y ago
> This isnt true at all. I just gave numerous examples that I've seen personally. Centrists who don't care one way or the other about Zionism certainly aren't the ones beating up Jews on the streets of London when Israel does something bad.
- pydry 4y ago
  The guy who beat up a Jew in London screamed "fuck Jews" while he did it. Not shy about his views - like most of your other examples no doubt. There is close to no overlap between these people and the people who take pains to explain for the 15th time to a likely racist skeptic that they dont hate jews it's the state of israel they have a problem with. On the other hand, ive yet to hear a single person who purposefully conflates the two condemn Isaac Herzog - the president of israel as a racist for what he definitely said. Literally zero. You would be the first if you were to do it in any such argument ive had. The closest I got was "his views are unfortunate". I generally interpret this silence as a signal that his views on racial supremacy, his state and its institutions are thoroughly and comprehensively endorsed.
  - hackerlight 4y ago
    > The guy who beat up a Jew in London screamed "fuck Jews" while he did it > There is close to no overlap between these people and the people who take pains to explain for the 15th time to a likely racist skeptic that they dont hate jews it's the state of israel they have a problem with. Yes, those specific anti-Zionists aren't anti-semites. These are the types of anti-Zionists that you'll find in tech circles who are educated, egalitarian minded people that are cognitively capable of separating the crimes of a state and the ethnic group inside it. That doesn't detract from the observation that there's an intersection and correlation between people who are anti-Zionist and people who are anti-semitic. You see this correlation manifest in alt-right neo-Nazi communities, who both hate Israel and hate Jews, go and read Stormfront or 4chan. And you see it manifest among Arab-Muslim nationalists. There isn't a group that hates Jews and don't also hate Israel. Regarding the guy who was screaming "fuck Jews", he was probably motivated to action by what Israel was doing a day before. It didn't happen in a vacuum where his anti-semitism can be cleanly separated from his dislike of Israel. The two are related. It's the same underlying psychology as people who are racist against Muslims because of Al Qaeda or ISIS, or people who are racist against Russians because of Putin, and so on. https://musliminstitute.org/freethinking/culture/sorry-truth-virus-anti-semitism-has-infected-british-muslim-community https://musliminstitute.org/freethinking/culture/sorry-truth...
Adverblessly 4y ago
> This is reflected by the views of the President of Israel, who is openly against miscegenation. Sorry if this is nitpicking, but who are you talking about here? The President of Israel is Isaac Herzog, formerly the leader of the opposition and on the left side of the political map. I'd be highly surprised if he held such opinions. If you are talking about the Prime Minister (Israel is one of those countries where the Prime Minister has the most power and the President is mostly a ceremonial position, so maybe you got confused due to that?) then the current one is Yair Lapid, which I'd also be highly surprised if he held such opinions. Maybe the previous one, Naftali Bennett? I guess I could believe that, though I'd love to see exactly what public statements you are referring to.
- pydry 4y ago
  Yeah, that guy. If you google for isaac herzog miscegenation and you'll find it. If you visit the occupied territories around, say, Hebron it will be far less surprising that even somebody on the left would hold such views. His was a useful example not because it's the most heinous but because he is at the top and clearly representative rather than a crazed rando, because he was very unambiguous about what he meant and because he doubled down on it when challenged. It's hard, if not impossible, to find examples in the west that meet all of those 3 conditions. Racism permeates their society to its very core. There are plenty of examples that are way, way worse.

by pydry 4y ago

case0x00 4y ago

its definitely true? a lot of leftist groups claim to be anti-zionist but end up discriminating against jews (in the US). many proclaimed anti-zionists end up parroting the same tropes used by antisemites. and then you blame it on some kind of jewish conspiracy?

pydry 4y ago
>its definitely true? a lot of leftist groups claim to be anti-zionist but end up discriminating against jews They definitely dont but they always get accused of it. The Israeli state (headed by the guy who openly doesnt want his daughter to marry a black guy) has several organizations (ADL, etc) set up specifically for the purpose of rooting out and mischaracterizing these examples for the purposes of furthering the aims of the state. They also happen to go after real antisemitism. Sometimes. They didnt give a fuck about viktor orban using hook nosed jew tropes in his campaign adverts though, because "friend of israel" > "friend of jews". This isnt a "Jewish conspiracy". After all they go after antizionist Jews too. Even an antizionist holocaust survivor in one case. It's an avowedly pro racism enterprise headed by a committed racist who explained his views without metaphors or tropes using anti-racism and "oh look, tropes!" as a figleaf.

hackerlight 4y ago

> This isnt true at all. I just gave numerous examples that I've seen personally. Centrists who don't care one way or the other about Zionism certainly aren't the ones beating up Jews on the streets of London when Israel does something bad.

pydry 4y ago
The guy who beat up a Jew in London screamed "fuck Jews" while he did it. Not shy about his views - like most of your other examples no doubt. There is close to no overlap between these people and the people who take pains to explain for the 15th time to a likely racist skeptic that they dont hate jews it's the state of israel they have a problem with. On the other hand, ive yet to hear a single person who purposefully conflates the two condemn Isaac Herzog - the president of israel as a racist for what he definitely said. Literally zero. You would be the first if you were to do it in any such argument ive had. The closest I got was "his views are unfortunate". I generally interpret this silence as a signal that his views on racial supremacy, his state and its institutions are thoroughly and comprehensively endorsed.
- hackerlight 4y ago
  > The guy who beat up a Jew in London screamed "fuck Jews" while he did it > There is close to no overlap between these people and the people who take pains to explain for the 15th time to a likely racist skeptic that they dont hate jews it's the state of israel they have a problem with. Yes, those specific anti-Zionists aren't anti-semites. These are the types of anti-Zionists that you'll find in tech circles who are educated, egalitarian minded people that are cognitively capable of separating the crimes of a state and the ethnic group inside it. That doesn't detract from the observation that there's an intersection and correlation between people who are anti-Zionist and people who are anti-semitic. You see this correlation manifest in alt-right neo-Nazi communities, who both hate Israel and hate Jews, go and read Stormfront or 4chan. And you see it manifest among Arab-Muslim nationalists. There isn't a group that hates Jews and don't also hate Israel. Regarding the guy who was screaming "fuck Jews", he was probably motivated to action by what Israel was doing a day before. It didn't happen in a vacuum where his anti-semitism can be cleanly separated from his dislike of Israel. The two are related. It's the same underlying psychology as people who are racist against Muslims because of Al Qaeda or ISIS, or people who are racist against Russians because of Putin, and so on. https://musliminstitute.org/freethinking/culture/sorry-truth-virus-anti-semitism-has-infected-british-muslim-community https://musliminstitute.org/freethinking/culture/sorry-truth...

Adverblessly 4y ago

> This is reflected by the views of the President of Israel, who is openly against miscegenation. Sorry if this is nitpicking, but who are you talking about here? The President of Israel is Isaac Herzog, formerly the leader of the opposition and on the left side of the political map. I'd be highly surprised if he held such opinions. If you are talking about the Prime Minister (Israel is one of those countries where the Prime Minister has the most power and the President is mostly a ceremonial position, so maybe you got confused due to that?) then the current one is Yair Lapid, which I'd also be highly surprised if he held such opinions. Maybe the previous one, Naftali Bennett? I guess I could believe that, though I'd love to see exactly what public statements you are referring to.

pydry 4y ago
Yeah, that guy. If you google for isaac herzog miscegenation and you'll find it. If you visit the occupied territories around, say, Hebron it will be far less surprising that even somebody on the left would hold such views. His was a useful example not because it's the most heinous but because he is at the top and clearly representative rather than a crazed rando, because he was very unambiguous about what he meant and because he doubled down on it when challenged. It's hard, if not impossible, to find examples in the west that meet all of those 3 conditions. Racism permeates their society to its very core. There are plenty of examples that are way, way worse.