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The thing I really didn't like was how you used the word "fun" as if to minimize the seriousness of the problem. In fact, it came off to me as if you were minim

The thing I really didn't like was how you used the word "fun" as if to minimize the seriousness of the problem. In fact, it came off to me as if you were minimizing the seriousness of depression in general. I could have just taken it that way without you meaning it like that. Your comment about pills also came off as if to say its not a valid solution. Like maybe pills are somehow for the weak or lazy. Honestly, I just really detected a lot of snark in that comment and in this one and I don't know why. You just called my participation in CBT "an enjoyable hobby" like a backhanded compliment. I wouldn't call it a hobby at all. Maybe if you want to get technical and argue semantics a moral failing and disease may not be mutually exclusive. But we're talking about the real world. As it applies to depression and addiction, disease and moral failing are mutually exclusive. People are looked down upon and carry a stigma because so many people want to call it a moral failing. They say "just snap out of it" for depression and they call addicts weak people when the reality is so far from being so black and white. Everyone can pull out studies to discredit the other guy's study that he pulled out. Let's be real when we talk about this stuff and not hide behind studies. Researchers disagree all the time so the best we can do is use our own experience, best judgement, and widely accepted truths to argue our points. At the end of the day I took less issue with your facts than your ton. It just sounded demeaning and like you were minimizing the seriousness of this stuff. Plus there was a bit of snark detected. I don't think I was the only one either. That's all, this isn't a personal attack, man. Correct me if I'm wrong.

yummyfajitas 15y ago
I put "fun" in quotes since I was using the same word tptacek used. I never claimed pills are not a valid solution - in general, have no objection to humans modifying themselves using drugs for any purpose. See here where I defend brain boosting drugs, athletic performance enhancing drugs, and anti-obesity pills: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=389919 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=389919 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3230151 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3230151 I wouldn't call it [CBT] a hobby at all. You said you "...still go to CBT...just because I really enjoy it...Even the therapist agrees I'd be fine without it...". If you don't call such an activity a hobby, what would you call it? Maybe if you want to get technical and argue semantics a moral failing and disease may not be mutually exclusive. But we're talking about the real world. As it applies to depression and addiction, disease and moral failing are mutually exclusive. If you wish to argue that they are not "moral failings", then make such an argument. Define your morality explain why addiction to drugs does not meet your criteria for immorality. For example, I'd argue thusly: "I believe an action is only immoral if it harms another person against their will. Drug addiction/depression does not do this, hence the choice to use and become addicted to drugs is not a moral failing." Don't try to confuse people with logically invalid argument such as "it's an illness, not a moral failing". That's as logically invalid as arguing "penguins are birds, and therefore can fly."
- tptacek 15y ago
  Guys. What are we really arguing about here?
  - yummyfajitas 15y ago
    I'm arguing against muddled thinking and intellectually dishonest arguments.
    - billpatrianakos 15y ago
      I'm not really arguing. Seems like someone is looking to start a fight. I saw a comment that seemed to belittle the depressed and minimize the seriousness of the problem as well as a veiled mockery of CBT.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
cop359 15y ago
It seems you're being overly sensitive. I don't really know what you mean by moral failing. To morally failyou have to start doing something that is immoral, like killing kitten or something Just out of curiosity (I don't really know what the answer is because I don't have depression), but do you think it's impossible for a person to become depressed due to being weak or having a weak character? Could for example being a loser make your life difficult and lead to depression? Now I understand "loser" is kind of a meaningless term, but I'm just using it as an illustrative example. Say for a particular set of reasons (having to due with your character/personality) everyone around you always teases you. Couldn't that lead to depression; and if you were that kind of person, wouldn't addressing what makes you a "loser" be the correct way ultimately to deal with your depression. Or is depression never caused by problems with one's own personality/character?
- rooshdi 15y ago
  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001941/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001941/
- drumdance 15y ago
  Never? No. And sometimes Type 2 diabetes is caused or exacerbated by bad life choices. But no one denies that the symptoms are real.
  - anemona 15y ago
    http://www.escorta-ta.ro http://www.escorta-ta.ro
- billpatrianakos 15y ago
  Your point about being a loser is exactly the kind of thing that hurts people more than helps them. Don't get me wrong, I get your point and the way you put it really makes sense. Yes, I'm sure failing can lead to depression and I have no doubt that it happens. But consider this. Very often the very thing that creates a "loser" is not a personal failing but actually a symptom of depression. People will fly off the handle on me for not citing a study but it's the best I've got right now. I'll take my own case. From birth I was as happy and normal as anyone. Smart as anything, lots of success, and so on. Suddenly depression comes out of nowhere. The symptoms of depression brought me to a point where I could no longer work, study, or do anything really. It also led me to self medicate and become an addict. That's the point where my situation fed my depression and made it worse much like you describe. Stories like this are very common from the depressed. Everyone fails at some point but that failure doesn't always lead to depression. People just pick up the pieces and move on. So while what you say could likely be true for some, it's most likely not true for most NAND even if it is, that line of thought prevents people from seeking the help they need soon enough if at all. They come to think that they are flawed and weak which then feeds the depression beast and on top of it they believe that they can somehow snap themselves out of it and become "strong" by sheer will power. Your comment also implies that there's no difference between situational depression and other forms of the disease. You could also read it as saying depression is the same as being really really sad. I know you didn't mean it that way and I can't blame you for it. Honestly, people who haven't been there will have thoughts like these. That's why I always argue for more education and it's why the professionals keep shoving the "it's a disease" line down our throats. Because people who don't have the experience are inadvertently doing harm to those who need help. And you're right, I might have been just a touch sensitive. It's not that I take it personally. It's just that having seen myself and others in that situation I know that they'd cringe for fear that some poor soul will take it to heart and actually try to will their way out of it instead of seeking help.

yummyfajitas 15y ago

I put "fun" in quotes since I was using the same word tptacek used. I never claimed pills are not a valid solution - in general, have no objection to humans modifying themselves using drugs for any purpose. See here where I defend brain boosting drugs, athletic performance enhancing drugs, and anti-obesity pills: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=389919 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=389919 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3230151 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3230151 I wouldn't call it [CBT] a hobby at all. You said you "...still go to CBT...just because I really enjoy it...Even the therapist agrees I'd be fine without it...". If you don't call such an activity a hobby, what would you call it? Maybe if you want to get technical and argue semantics a moral failing and disease may not be mutually exclusive. But we're talking about the real world. As it applies to depression and addiction, disease and moral failing are mutually exclusive. If you wish to argue that they are not "moral failings", then make such an argument. Define your morality explain why addiction to drugs does not meet your criteria for immorality. For example, I'd argue thusly: "I believe an action is only immoral if it harms another person against their will. Drug addiction/depression does not do this, hence the choice to use and become addicted to drugs is not a moral failing." Don't try to confuse people with logically invalid argument such as "it's an illness, not a moral failing". That's as logically invalid as arguing "penguins are birds, and therefore can fly."

tptacek 15y ago
Guys. What are we really arguing about here?
- yummyfajitas 15y ago
  I'm arguing against muddled thinking and intellectually dishonest arguments.
  - billpatrianakos 15y ago
    I'm not really arguing. Seems like someone is looking to start a fight. I saw a comment that seemed to belittle the depressed and minimize the seriousness of the problem as well as a veiled mockery of CBT.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]

cop359 15y ago

It seems you're being overly sensitive. I don't really know what you mean by moral failing. To morally failyou have to start doing something that is immoral, like killing kitten or something Just out of curiosity (I don't really know what the answer is because I don't have depression), but do you think it's impossible for a person to become depressed due to being weak or having a weak character? Could for example being a loser make your life difficult and lead to depression? Now I understand "loser" is kind of a meaningless term, but I'm just using it as an illustrative example. Say for a particular set of reasons (having to due with your character/personality) everyone around you always teases you. Couldn't that lead to depression; and if you were that kind of person, wouldn't addressing what makes you a "loser" be the correct way ultimately to deal with your depression. Or is depression never caused by problems with one's own personality/character?

rooshdi 15y ago
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001941/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001941/
drumdance 15y ago
Never? No. And sometimes Type 2 diabetes is caused or exacerbated by bad life choices. But no one denies that the symptoms are real.
- anemona 15y ago
  http://www.escorta-ta.ro http://www.escorta-ta.ro
billpatrianakos 15y ago
Your point about being a loser is exactly the kind of thing that hurts people more than helps them. Don't get me wrong, I get your point and the way you put it really makes sense. Yes, I'm sure failing can lead to depression and I have no doubt that it happens. But consider this. Very often the very thing that creates a "loser" is not a personal failing but actually a symptom of depression. People will fly off the handle on me for not citing a study but it's the best I've got right now. I'll take my own case. From birth I was as happy and normal as anyone. Smart as anything, lots of success, and so on. Suddenly depression comes out of nowhere. The symptoms of depression brought me to a point where I could no longer work, study, or do anything really. It also led me to self medicate and become an addict. That's the point where my situation fed my depression and made it worse much like you describe. Stories like this are very common from the depressed. Everyone fails at some point but that failure doesn't always lead to depression. People just pick up the pieces and move on. So while what you say could likely be true for some, it's most likely not true for most NAND even if it is, that line of thought prevents people from seeking the help they need soon enough if at all. They come to think that they are flawed and weak which then feeds the depression beast and on top of it they believe that they can somehow snap themselves out of it and become "strong" by sheer will power. Your comment also implies that there's no difference between situational depression and other forms of the disease. You could also read it as saying depression is the same as being really really sad. I know you didn't mean it that way and I can't blame you for it. Honestly, people who haven't been there will have thoughts like these. That's why I always argue for more education and it's why the professionals keep shoving the "it's a disease" line down our throats. Because people who don't have the experience are inadvertently doing harm to those who need help. And you're right, I might have been just a touch sensitive. It's not that I take it personally. It's just that having seen myself and others in that situation I know that they'd cringe for fear that some poor soul will take it to heart and actually try to will their way out of it instead of seeking help.