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A working dev should be well beyond the understanding of a third-year CS student. This is not "advanced" from the perspective of someone in practice, it is the

by imgabe 4y ago

A working dev should be well beyond the understanding of a third-year CS student. This is not "advanced" from the perspective of someone in practice, it is the requirement to get in to the practice. (I know people get programming jobs without CS degrees, but if you can do that, you can teach yourself how pointers work)

schroeding 4y ago
Right, "advanced" into their studies, they weren't freshman but almost done with their bachelors degree. And yeah, I believe that most developers can learn pointers and FP, sure, but on the side with pair programming and "mob programming", while still working a full time dev job?
- robertlagrant 4y ago
  The point of the article here is that if it's a language your company uses, learning it is part of your dev job.
- wiseowise 4y ago
  Yes.
  - schroeding 4y ago
    Without using their free time?
    - choko 4y ago
      Depends on the company. Where I work, the answer is yes. Work/life balance is heavily stressed, which has been a surprise. However, when I started my career, it was with the expectation that staying up to date with technology would require some personal time. I don't personally know anyone that didn't start a technical career without that expectation.
thrown_22 4y ago
In mathematics first year students who have started specializing already have knowledge that PhDs in other mathematical specializations don't. CS is exactly the same. You can't teach Joy to someone who has only programmed in JS any more than you can do the reverse. The difference is that we have a lot of people who have learned only algol derivatives and don't understand just how _weird_ the zoo of non-standard languages is.
_tardigrade 4y ago
I don't have CS degree but I do have 7 years commercial experience with Python/Django Rest Framework and I have no idea how pointers work.
- wiseowise 4y ago
  That’s not something to be proud of.
  - modriano 4y ago
    - zach_garwood 4y ago
      +1 for use of the term "rascal"
- imgabe 4y ago
  Right, there’s no reason you’d need to know in Python. How quickly could you pick it up if you had to? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointer_(computer_programming) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointer_(computer_programmin...
- sarchertech 4y ago
  If you need to understand what Python is doing under the hood, you’ll have to have some understanding of pointers. Not having a decent mental model of what’s happening a few levels below severely limits the kinda of problems you can solve.
  - goatlover 4y ago
    What sort of problems would you need to be doing in Python that aren't already done by libraries like NumPy which would require that sort of mental model?
    - 4y ago
P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
I'd go one further. If you struggle with pointers and direct memory manipulation in C, you didn't understand Java nearly as well as you thought you did. There's a distinction between reference and pointer in C++, but in Java they're basically the same thing with roughly the same semantics, up to and including the ability to be null.

by imgabe 4y ago

schroeding 4y ago

Right, "advanced" into their studies, they weren't freshman but almost done with their bachelors degree. And yeah, I believe that most developers can learn pointers and FP, sure, but on the side with pair programming and "mob programming", while still working a full time dev job?

robertlagrant 4y ago
The point of the article here is that if it's a language your company uses, learning it is part of your dev job.
wiseowise 4y ago
Yes.
- schroeding 4y ago
  Without using their free time?
  - choko 4y ago
    Depends on the company. Where I work, the answer is yes. Work/life balance is heavily stressed, which has been a surprise. However, when I started my career, it was with the expectation that staying up to date with technology would require some personal time. I don't personally know anyone that didn't start a technical career without that expectation.

thrown_22 4y ago

In mathematics first year students who have started specializing already have knowledge that PhDs in other mathematical specializations don't. CS is exactly the same. You can't teach Joy to someone who has only programmed in JS any more than you can do the reverse. The difference is that we have a lot of people who have learned only algol derivatives and don't understand just how _weird_ the zoo of non-standard languages is.

_tardigrade 4y ago

I don't have CS degree but I do have 7 years commercial experience with Python/Django Rest Framework and I have no idea how pointers work.

wiseowise 4y ago
That’s not something to be proud of.
- modriano 4y ago
  - zach_garwood 4y ago
    +1 for use of the term "rascal"
imgabe 4y ago
Right, there’s no reason you’d need to know in Python. How quickly could you pick it up if you had to? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointer_(computer_programming) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointer_(computer_programmin...
sarchertech 4y ago
If you need to understand what Python is doing under the hood, you’ll have to have some understanding of pointers. Not having a decent mental model of what’s happening a few levels below severely limits the kinda of problems you can solve.
- goatlover 4y ago
  What sort of problems would you need to be doing in Python that aren't already done by libraries like NumPy which would require that sort of mental model?
  - 4y ago

P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago

I'd go one further. If you struggle with pointers and direct memory manipulation in C, you didn't understand Java nearly as well as you thought you did. There's a distinction between reference and pointer in C++, but in Java they're basically the same thing with roughly the same semantics, up to and including the ability to be null.