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> anti-Zionism is conflated with anti-semitism One reason people say that is perceptions of double standards. They see China get an easier time on their treatm

> anti-Zionism is conflated with anti-semitism One reason people say that is perceptions of double standards. They see China get an easier time on their treatment of Uyghurs. Another reason people say that is because anti-Zionism is demonstrably correlated with anti-semitism. They see photos of someone at an anti-Israel rally giving the roman salute. They see people attacking Jews at random on the street whenever Israel does something shitty. They see a photo of a neo-Nazi group holding up the Palestinian flag in solidarity. They see anti-semitic tropes being shared in online forums that focus on criticism on Zionism and Israel. A third reason is that anti-"Zionism" is a broad tent with a lot of different opinions, some of which Jewish Israelis view as genocidal in outcome if not in intent. Of course, that doesn't mean criticism of Israel is automatically anti-semitic. That would be ridiculous, and there isn't really many people who actually say that in earnest.

pydry 4y ago
>Another reason people say that is because anti-Zionism is demonstrably correlated with anti-semitism This isnt true at all. The far right, for example, are pretty openly antisemitic. If somebody takes pains to distinguish the two on the other hand they're rarely bullshitting. The converse is true though. Attempts to conflate antizionism and antisemitism by are almost always ultimately driven by a staunch belief in Jewish racial supremacy and racism against Arabs. This is reflected by the views of the President of Israel, who is openly against miscegenation. That is a view you can only hold as a committed racist. Few would argue that a white president who doesnt want any white daughters to marry a black man is anything else. For some reason the Israeli state not only gets a pass, they are granted the authority to judge what constitutes racism not only by America, but also by IHRA.
- case0x00 4y ago
  its definitely true? a lot of leftist groups claim to be anti-zionist but end up discriminating against jews (in the US). many proclaimed anti-zionists end up parroting the same tropes used by antisemites. and then you blame it on some kind of jewish conspiracy?
  - pydry 4y ago
    >its definitely true? a lot of leftist groups claim to be anti-zionist but end up discriminating against jews They definitely dont but they always get accused of it. The Israeli state (headed by the guy who openly doesnt want his daughter to marry a black guy) has several organizations (ADL, etc) set up specifically for the purpose of rooting out and mischaracterizing these examples for the purposes of furthering the aims of the state. They also happen to go after real antisemitism. Sometimes. They didnt give a fuck about viktor orban using hook nosed jew tropes in his campaign adverts though, because "friend of israel" > "friend of jews". This isnt a "Jewish conspiracy". After all they go after antizionist Jews too. Even an antizionist holocaust survivor in one case. It's an avowedly pro racism enterprise headed by a committed racist who explained his views without metaphors or tropes using anti-racism and "oh look, tropes!" as a figleaf.
- hackerlight 4y ago
  > This isnt true at all. I just gave numerous examples that I've seen personally. Centrists who don't care one way or the other about Zionism certainly aren't the ones beating up Jews on the streets of London when Israel does something bad.
  - pydry 4y ago
    The guy who beat up a Jew in London screamed "fuck Jews" while he did it. Not shy about his views - like most of your other examples no doubt. There is close to no overlap between these people and the people who take pains to explain for the 15th time to a likely racist skeptic that they dont hate jews it's the state of israel they have a problem with. On the other hand, ive yet to hear a single person who purposefully conflates the two condemn Isaac Herzog - the president of israel as a racist for what he definitely said. Literally zero. You would be the first if you were to do it in any such argument ive had. The closest I got was "his views are unfortunate". I generally interpret this silence as a signal that his views on racial supremacy, his state and its institutions are thoroughly and comprehensively endorsed.
    - hackerlight 4y ago
      > The guy who beat up a Jew in London screamed "fuck Jews" while he did it > There is close to no overlap between these people and the people who take pains to explain for the 15th time to a likely racist skeptic that they dont hate jews it's the state of israel they have a problem with. Yes, those specific anti-Zionists aren't anti-semites. These are the types of anti-Zionists that you'll find in tech circles who are educated, egalitarian minded people that are cognitively capable of separating the crimes of a state and the ethnic group inside it. That doesn't detract from the observation that there's an intersection and correlation between people who are anti-Zionist and people who are anti-semitic. You see this correlation manifest in alt-right neo-Nazi communities, who both hate Israel and hate Jews, go and read Stormfront or 4chan. And you see it manifest among Arab-Muslim nationalists. There isn't a group that hates Jews and don't also hate Israel. Regarding the guy who was screaming "fuck Jews", he was probably motivated to action by what Israel was doing a day before. It didn't happen in a vacuum where his anti-semitism can be cleanly separated from his dislike of Israel. The two are related. It's the same underlying psychology as people who are racist against Muslims because of Al Qaeda or ISIS, or people who are racist against Russians because of Putin, and so on. https://musliminstitute.org/freethinking/culture/sorry-truth-virus-anti-semitism-has-infected-british-muslim-community https://musliminstitute.org/freethinking/culture/sorry-truth...
- Adverblessly 4y ago
  > This is reflected by the views of the President of Israel, who is openly against miscegenation. Sorry if this is nitpicking, but who are you talking about here? The President of Israel is Isaac Herzog, formerly the leader of the opposition and on the left side of the political map. I'd be highly surprised if he held such opinions. If you are talking about the Prime Minister (Israel is one of those countries where the Prime Minister has the most power and the President is mostly a ceremonial position, so maybe you got confused due to that?) then the current one is Yair Lapid, which I'd also be highly surprised if he held such opinions. Maybe the previous one, Naftali Bennett? I guess I could believe that, though I'd love to see exactly what public statements you are referring to.
  - pydry 4y ago
    Yeah, that guy. If you google for isaac herzog miscegenation and you'll find it. If you visit the occupied territories around, say, Hebron it will be far less surprising that even somebody on the left would hold such views. His was a useful example not because it's the most heinous but because he is at the top and clearly representative rather than a crazed rando, because he was very unambiguous about what he meant and because he doubled down on it when challenged. It's hard, if not impossible, to find examples in the west that meet all of those 3 conditions. Racism permeates their society to its very core. There are plenty of examples that are way, way worse.
elzbardico 4y ago
A sizable portion of the Nazi party was very sympathetic to the creation of a Jewish state in Palestine. Likewise, the Soviet Union was the first nation to recognize Israel and the Russian Jewish community was very important in the creation of Israel. More than 25% of the Jewish colonists came from Russia and other Soviet countries. The same Russia where pogroms were a routine in the XIX century. Zionism was a pretty convenient idea for a lot of ultra-nationalists that didn't want Jewish people in their countries.
- nailer 4y ago
  > The same Russia where pogroms were a routine in the XIX century. It's almost like the Jews who fled Judea / Beta Israel following the Roman crackdown after Bar Kochba weren't welcome in Russia. Someone should find a way to let them return there and live in peace.
compsciphd 4y ago
if one's anti zionism is a rejection of jewish peoplehood / nationhood (i.e. jews aren't a nation) then one is rejecting a shared conception of the vast majority of jews have how they perceive themselves. The vast majority of anti-zionists reject jewish peoplehood (especially the ones who claim to be jewish, which in general just means of jewish descent, not anything that makes them uniquely jewish vs. non jewish). why? I'd argue because that makes it much easier to say good guy / bad guy. If jews are a distinct people who have indigenous ties to the land, then makes it difficult and complicated. So while criticism of Israel isn't inherently anti-semitic (criticism can come from love as a simple example), it is very possible that the vast majority of anti-zionists are by definition anti-semites due to said rejection of identity.

pydry 4y ago

>Another reason people say that is because anti-Zionism is demonstrably correlated with anti-semitism This isnt true at all. The far right, for example, are pretty openly antisemitic. If somebody takes pains to distinguish the two on the other hand they're rarely bullshitting. The converse is true though. Attempts to conflate antizionism and antisemitism by are almost always ultimately driven by a staunch belief in Jewish racial supremacy and racism against Arabs. This is reflected by the views of the President of Israel, who is openly against miscegenation. That is a view you can only hold as a committed racist. Few would argue that a white president who doesnt want any white daughters to marry a black man is anything else. For some reason the Israeli state not only gets a pass, they are granted the authority to judge what constitutes racism not only by America, but also by IHRA.

case0x00 4y ago
its definitely true? a lot of leftist groups claim to be anti-zionist but end up discriminating against jews (in the US). many proclaimed anti-zionists end up parroting the same tropes used by antisemites. and then you blame it on some kind of jewish conspiracy?
- pydry 4y ago
  >its definitely true? a lot of leftist groups claim to be anti-zionist but end up discriminating against jews They definitely dont but they always get accused of it. The Israeli state (headed by the guy who openly doesnt want his daughter to marry a black guy) has several organizations (ADL, etc) set up specifically for the purpose of rooting out and mischaracterizing these examples for the purposes of furthering the aims of the state. They also happen to go after real antisemitism. Sometimes. They didnt give a fuck about viktor orban using hook nosed jew tropes in his campaign adverts though, because "friend of israel" > "friend of jews". This isnt a "Jewish conspiracy". After all they go after antizionist Jews too. Even an antizionist holocaust survivor in one case. It's an avowedly pro racism enterprise headed by a committed racist who explained his views without metaphors or tropes using anti-racism and "oh look, tropes!" as a figleaf.
hackerlight 4y ago
> This isnt true at all. I just gave numerous examples that I've seen personally. Centrists who don't care one way or the other about Zionism certainly aren't the ones beating up Jews on the streets of London when Israel does something bad.
- pydry 4y ago
  The guy who beat up a Jew in London screamed "fuck Jews" while he did it. Not shy about his views - like most of your other examples no doubt. There is close to no overlap between these people and the people who take pains to explain for the 15th time to a likely racist skeptic that they dont hate jews it's the state of israel they have a problem with. On the other hand, ive yet to hear a single person who purposefully conflates the two condemn Isaac Herzog - the president of israel as a racist for what he definitely said. Literally zero. You would be the first if you were to do it in any such argument ive had. The closest I got was "his views are unfortunate". I generally interpret this silence as a signal that his views on racial supremacy, his state and its institutions are thoroughly and comprehensively endorsed.
  - hackerlight 4y ago
    > The guy who beat up a Jew in London screamed "fuck Jews" while he did it > There is close to no overlap between these people and the people who take pains to explain for the 15th time to a likely racist skeptic that they dont hate jews it's the state of israel they have a problem with. Yes, those specific anti-Zionists aren't anti-semites. These are the types of anti-Zionists that you'll find in tech circles who are educated, egalitarian minded people that are cognitively capable of separating the crimes of a state and the ethnic group inside it. That doesn't detract from the observation that there's an intersection and correlation between people who are anti-Zionist and people who are anti-semitic. You see this correlation manifest in alt-right neo-Nazi communities, who both hate Israel and hate Jews, go and read Stormfront or 4chan. And you see it manifest among Arab-Muslim nationalists. There isn't a group that hates Jews and don't also hate Israel. Regarding the guy who was screaming "fuck Jews", he was probably motivated to action by what Israel was doing a day before. It didn't happen in a vacuum where his anti-semitism can be cleanly separated from his dislike of Israel. The two are related. It's the same underlying psychology as people who are racist against Muslims because of Al Qaeda or ISIS, or people who are racist against Russians because of Putin, and so on. https://musliminstitute.org/freethinking/culture/sorry-truth-virus-anti-semitism-has-infected-british-muslim-community https://musliminstitute.org/freethinking/culture/sorry-truth...
Adverblessly 4y ago
> This is reflected by the views of the President of Israel, who is openly against miscegenation. Sorry if this is nitpicking, but who are you talking about here? The President of Israel is Isaac Herzog, formerly the leader of the opposition and on the left side of the political map. I'd be highly surprised if he held such opinions. If you are talking about the Prime Minister (Israel is one of those countries where the Prime Minister has the most power and the President is mostly a ceremonial position, so maybe you got confused due to that?) then the current one is Yair Lapid, which I'd also be highly surprised if he held such opinions. Maybe the previous one, Naftali Bennett? I guess I could believe that, though I'd love to see exactly what public statements you are referring to.
- pydry 4y ago
  Yeah, that guy. If you google for isaac herzog miscegenation and you'll find it. If you visit the occupied territories around, say, Hebron it will be far less surprising that even somebody on the left would hold such views. His was a useful example not because it's the most heinous but because he is at the top and clearly representative rather than a crazed rando, because he was very unambiguous about what he meant and because he doubled down on it when challenged. It's hard, if not impossible, to find examples in the west that meet all of those 3 conditions. Racism permeates their society to its very core. There are plenty of examples that are way, way worse.

elzbardico 4y ago

A sizable portion of the Nazi party was very sympathetic to the creation of a Jewish state in Palestine. Likewise, the Soviet Union was the first nation to recognize Israel and the Russian Jewish community was very important in the creation of Israel. More than 25% of the Jewish colonists came from Russia and other Soviet countries. The same Russia where pogroms were a routine in the XIX century. Zionism was a pretty convenient idea for a lot of ultra-nationalists that didn't want Jewish people in their countries.

nailer 4y ago
> The same Russia where pogroms were a routine in the XIX century. It's almost like the Jews who fled Judea / Beta Israel following the Roman crackdown after Bar Kochba weren't welcome in Russia. Someone should find a way to let them return there and live in peace.

compsciphd 4y ago

if one's anti zionism is a rejection of jewish peoplehood / nationhood (i.e. jews aren't a nation) then one is rejecting a shared conception of the vast majority of jews have how they perceive themselves. The vast majority of anti-zionists reject jewish peoplehood (especially the ones who claim to be jewish, which in general just means of jewish descent, not anything that makes them uniquely jewish vs. non jewish). why? I'd argue because that makes it much easier to say good guy / bad guy. If jews are a distinct people who have indigenous ties to the land, then makes it difficult and complicated. So while criticism of Israel isn't inherently anti-semitic (criticism can come from love as a simple example), it is very possible that the vast majority of anti-zionists are by definition anti-semites due to said rejection of identity.