5 ms·

Easy, go to Finland where the Fins expect to get nude with everyone in mix sex groups. So, imagine 10 fins. Someones says "let's sauna!" and likely all 10 will

by gernb 4y ago

Easy, go to Finland where the Fins expect to get nude with everyone in mix sex groups. So, imagine 10 fins. Someones says "let's sauna!" and likely all 10 will be like "yea!". Now replace 5 of them with 5 muslims (or other group who find public nudity offensive). Now propose the same activity "let's sauna!" You've just made 5 people uncomfortable as they now have to decline your invitation.

Chris2048 4y ago
Why wouldn't young Finns with similar values stick together in social groups?
- rglullis 4y ago
  Because that is not something so important and polarizing to the point of creating tribes?
  - Chris2048 4y ago
    It doesn't need to be polarising, people don't form social groups with everyone they meet, mere common interests can cause people to gravitate to each other.
    - rglullis 4y ago
      You are talking about young people in a real-world scenario involving physical interactions, not some internet forum or any other social setting where groups self-select. I doubt that people will be basing their relationships based on such a secondary aspect of their cultural values. Where they live, their close family, where they go to school, what type of activities they do after school and what type of activities and relationships their parents have... all of that is a lot more relevant to determine their social circle than "strong affinity around the interest for skinny dipping"
      - Chris2048 4y ago
        > not some internet forum or any other social setting where groups self-select IRL social groups also self select. Do you hang out with everyone you went to school with? No, there is selection. > where they go to school, what type of activities they do after school and what type of activities and relationships their parents have.. all of which are effected by culture and religion. > strong affinity around the interest for skinny dipping Social interaction with the opposite sex, consumption of alcohol, and other social-meeting-place-determining are others. And if Finns have strong church community (I'm not sure they do) that might be another. The original example suggested social groups would suddenly have 50% Muslim membership, enough to stop a bunch of people who wanted to do something from doing it because it would cause so much strife in their social group. This is unrealistic. Is also the case that young Finning Muslim immigrant aren't necessarily going to influence their native (European/Finnish) counterparts as much as the other way around - maybe more Muslims will try skinny dipping.
        rglullis 4y ago
        > There is selection. Of course, but the point is exactly that there are plenty of other things that are more important to determine the affinity between peers. > all of which are effected by culture and religion. In the US, maybe so. In Europe, not so much. My experience in Berlin is that even though you might notice some clustering in different demographics (e.g, parts of the city where you see more Turks, others with more Polish, Russian, Greeks, Vietnamese, etc...) this separation is not strict. It might be that in France this segregation is more explicit, but what I hear from my French friends is that their division goes on the lines of "French/Non-French". > The original example suggested social groups would suddenly have 50% Muslim membership. It doesn't have to be 50%. Consider a scenario where muslims are a minority and they are not segregated/ghettoised. So, for every group of 5-6 close friends, you could have one muslim. Whenever one of these groups has to choose for an activity, they would know that by choosing "skinny dipping" they would be excluding their nudity-averse friend. So all these groups would end up looking for something else to do. > enough (...) to cause so much strife in their social group No one is saying about "strife". This is not a polarizing issue! You have someone in your group of friends who has some type of restriction about the activities and there are other alternatives that can appreciated by all, there is no "problem" to be solved. > maybe more Muslims will try skinny dipping. This shows a complete disconnect to reality and/or wishful thinking. Do you know any Muslims? Do you understand how display of modesty is a central part of their beliefs?
midasuni 4y ago
So what do Americans in Finland do?
- rglullis 4y ago
  What, all 8 of them? They giggle, join the group, create wide expectations on their heads and then try to spend the whole time not embarrassing themselves. Then they go back home to oversell the stories to their peers. Most of them stop talking about it after getting tired of the usual responses ranging from "where is Finland?" to "if all I wanted was to see naked women, I'd go to the nearest strip joint."

by gernb 4y ago

Chris2048 4y ago

Why wouldn't young Finns with similar values stick together in social groups?

rglullis 4y ago
Because that is not something so important and polarizing to the point of creating tribes?
- Chris2048 4y ago
  It doesn't need to be polarising, people don't form social groups with everyone they meet, mere common interests can cause people to gravitate to each other.
  - rglullis 4y ago
    You are talking about young people in a real-world scenario involving physical interactions, not some internet forum or any other social setting where groups self-select. I doubt that people will be basing their relationships based on such a secondary aspect of their cultural values. Where they live, their close family, where they go to school, what type of activities they do after school and what type of activities and relationships their parents have... all of that is a lot more relevant to determine their social circle than "strong affinity around the interest for skinny dipping"
    - Chris2048 4y ago
      > not some internet forum or any other social setting where groups self-select IRL social groups also self select. Do you hang out with everyone you went to school with? No, there is selection. > where they go to school, what type of activities they do after school and what type of activities and relationships their parents have.. all of which are effected by culture and religion. > strong affinity around the interest for skinny dipping Social interaction with the opposite sex, consumption of alcohol, and other social-meeting-place-determining are others. And if Finns have strong church community (I'm not sure they do) that might be another. The original example suggested social groups would suddenly have 50% Muslim membership, enough to stop a bunch of people who wanted to do something from doing it because it would cause so much strife in their social group. This is unrealistic. Is also the case that young Finning Muslim immigrant aren't necessarily going to influence their native (European/Finnish) counterparts as much as the other way around - maybe more Muslims will try skinny dipping.
      - rglullis 4y ago
        > There is selection. Of course, but the point is exactly that there are plenty of other things that are more important to determine the affinity between peers. > all of which are effected by culture and religion. In the US, maybe so. In Europe, not so much. My experience in Berlin is that even though you might notice some clustering in different demographics (e.g, parts of the city where you see more Turks, others with more Polish, Russian, Greeks, Vietnamese, etc...) this separation is not strict. It might be that in France this segregation is more explicit, but what I hear from my French friends is that their division goes on the lines of "French/Non-French". > The original example suggested social groups would suddenly have 50% Muslim membership. It doesn't have to be 50%. Consider a scenario where muslims are a minority and they are not segregated/ghettoised. So, for every group of 5-6 close friends, you could have one muslim. Whenever one of these groups has to choose for an activity, they would know that by choosing "skinny dipping" they would be excluding their nudity-averse friend. So all these groups would end up looking for something else to do. > enough (...) to cause so much strife in their social group No one is saying about "strife". This is not a polarizing issue! You have someone in your group of friends who has some type of restriction about the activities and there are other alternatives that can appreciated by all, there is no "problem" to be solved. > maybe more Muslims will try skinny dipping. This shows a complete disconnect to reality and/or wishful thinking. Do you know any Muslims? Do you understand how display of modesty is a central part of their beliefs?

midasuni 4y ago

So what do Americans in Finland do?

rglullis 4y ago
What, all 8 of them? They giggle, join the group, create wide expectations on their heads and then try to spend the whole time not embarrassing themselves. Then they go back home to oversell the stories to their peers. Most of them stop talking about it after getting tired of the usual responses ranging from "where is Finland?" to "if all I wanted was to see naked women, I'd go to the nearest strip joint."