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> If you are against this, your views are quite extremist and it is hard to find understanding and accommodation, particularly among fellow Jews. It's a bit mo

> If you are against this, your views are quite extremist and it is hard to find understanding and accommodation, particularly among fellow Jews. It's a bit more complicated than this. Israel militarily occupies Palestine. And they institute an apartheid system that is unfair to Palestinians, denying basic rights to Palestinians -- they can take your property, they can restrict your travel, they can strangle your economy. And they do. You might say Israelis deserve to live life in peace, but shouldn't Palestinians as well? The state of Israel was carved out of Palestine, so can you blame the original inhabitants of the area that they feel something was taken (and still being takene) from them, and can you blame anyone from sympathizing with that perspective? You don't have to be anti-Zionist to at least empathize with the complexity of the situation & understand that the state of Israel has enacted some very problematic policies and conducted problematic actions. I don't think it's fair to just call it extremist by any means. There are also levels to everything. Some folks are unhappy with the Israeli state as it exists today, but by saying they're anti-zionist & "Israel shouldn't exist" they typically aren't advocating for murder, they're advocating for a one-state solution so that inhabitants of Palestine/Israel can get democratic representation & equal rights. Again, not a crazy take.

abacadaba 4y ago
Correct they're not advocating for murder, they're advocating for suicide.
barry-cotter 4y ago
> they're advocating for a one-state solution so that inhabitants of Palestine/Israel can get democratic representation & equal rights. Again, not a crazy take. This is in fact a crazy take. It’s not quite advocating a shared state for Nazis and Jews level of crazy but it’s certainly getting there. Palestinian nationalism is based on being anti-Israel in much the same way anti-colonial or anti-metropolitan nationalism is. See Catalan, Scottish, Irish or Welsh nationalism. Palestinian nationalism is much more like Irish nationalism than any of the rest of those in that people have killed for it in large numbers. When people say something really stupid you have the choice of believing they’re lying or stupid. One staters are some of one and some of the other.
- dfadsadsf 4y ago
  Well Protestant and Catholics learned to live together in Germany. Took 30 years but they got there. I do not see why not Palestinians and Jewish can’t do the same.
  - barry-cotter 4y ago
    Were I a Jew or a Palestinian I would personally prefer not to live in a battleground for 30 years. Losing a third of the population also sounds bad. If your argument for one state is that it would be at worst as bad as the 30 Years War I’ll take it as an argument against one state.
auganov 4y ago
Of course the arabs in this area deserve better. Pretending Israel is the oppressor is not empathizing. Nor is believing in fake history in which some Palestinian state (or even major population) has ever existed. They're victims of PA/PLO/Fatah/Hamas and other such organizations as much as Russians are victims of their govt. Repeating their leadership's propaganda doesn't help them. To empathize with them is to recognize there are sane people living there who don't buy into this hogwash and are simply victims of circumstance.
- kajecounterhack 4y ago
  Israel _is_ harassed by some violent folks who have misguided ideologies that don't want peaceful coexistence but instead annihilation of the other. But so is Palestine. If you're going to wholesale call out the _loose confederacies_ of the PLO and related organizations for this kind of thinking, you should be willing to acknowledge the same thinking exists within the Israeli govt and army. They have done bad things, and it's not hard to see why if you understand how war works. War results in polarization and dehumanization of the other to the extent of "these other people should be dead." It happens to both of the polarized sides. And let's be real, Israel is in control here. They have a modern military and are the occupiers. The way they've gone about this is the cause of much violence. Imagine the desperation of living in an apartheid state: feeling that you are not being represented or fairly treated by the systems governing you. Imagine being treated differently from your neighbor because you're not a citizen, and you can never be one because of your race and religion. It's totally fair to call them the oppressor in this situation because what the heck are these loose disorganized confederacies living in occupied territory going to do? They don't really have power to change the situation.
Adverblessly 4y ago
> they're advocating for a one-state solution so that inhabitants of Palestine/Israel can get democratic representation & equal rights. Again, not a crazy take. This is roughly like advocating for ending the Russian-Ukrainian conflict by advocating for a one-state solution where the inhabitants can get democratic representation & equal rights.
- kajecounterhack 4y ago
  Sure, but it feels different if you call the one state "New Ukraine" and the government is a democracy headed by iono, Zelensky. Also, the one state solution is not advocating for Israeli annexation of all Palestinian territory -- it's advocating for the view that Israel has already de facto annexed Palestine, and that the current Israeli government is implementing a brutal apartheid that needs to end. Calling the whole state something new, giving everyone citizenship, and electing new leaders won't solve everything but it's a valid perspective to have.

abacadaba 4y ago

Correct they're not advocating for murder, they're advocating for suicide.

barry-cotter 4y ago

> they're advocating for a one-state solution so that inhabitants of Palestine/Israel can get democratic representation & equal rights. Again, not a crazy take. This is in fact a crazy take. It’s not quite advocating a shared state for Nazis and Jews level of crazy but it’s certainly getting there. Palestinian nationalism is based on being anti-Israel in much the same way anti-colonial or anti-metropolitan nationalism is. See Catalan, Scottish, Irish or Welsh nationalism. Palestinian nationalism is much more like Irish nationalism than any of the rest of those in that people have killed for it in large numbers. When people say something really stupid you have the choice of believing they’re lying or stupid. One staters are some of one and some of the other.

dfadsadsf 4y ago
Well Protestant and Catholics learned to live together in Germany. Took 30 years but they got there. I do not see why not Palestinians and Jewish can’t do the same.
- barry-cotter 4y ago
  Were I a Jew or a Palestinian I would personally prefer not to live in a battleground for 30 years. Losing a third of the population also sounds bad. If your argument for one state is that it would be at worst as bad as the 30 Years War I’ll take it as an argument against one state.

auganov 4y ago

Of course the arabs in this area deserve better. Pretending Israel is the oppressor is not empathizing. Nor is believing in fake history in which some Palestinian state (or even major population) has ever existed. They're victims of PA/PLO/Fatah/Hamas and other such organizations as much as Russians are victims of their govt. Repeating their leadership's propaganda doesn't help them. To empathize with them is to recognize there are sane people living there who don't buy into this hogwash and are simply victims of circumstance.

kajecounterhack 4y ago
Israel _is_ harassed by some violent folks who have misguided ideologies that don't want peaceful coexistence but instead annihilation of the other. But so is Palestine. If you're going to wholesale call out the _loose confederacies_ of the PLO and related organizations for this kind of thinking, you should be willing to acknowledge the same thinking exists within the Israeli govt and army. They have done bad things, and it's not hard to see why if you understand how war works. War results in polarization and dehumanization of the other to the extent of "these other people should be dead." It happens to both of the polarized sides. And let's be real, Israel is in control here. They have a modern military and are the occupiers. The way they've gone about this is the cause of much violence. Imagine the desperation of living in an apartheid state: feeling that you are not being represented or fairly treated by the systems governing you. Imagine being treated differently from your neighbor because you're not a citizen, and you can never be one because of your race and religion. It's totally fair to call them the oppressor in this situation because what the heck are these loose disorganized confederacies living in occupied territory going to do? They don't really have power to change the situation.

Adverblessly 4y ago

> they're advocating for a one-state solution so that inhabitants of Palestine/Israel can get democratic representation & equal rights. Again, not a crazy take. This is roughly like advocating for ending the Russian-Ukrainian conflict by advocating for a one-state solution where the inhabitants can get democratic representation & equal rights.

kajecounterhack 4y ago
Sure, but it feels different if you call the one state "New Ukraine" and the government is a democracy headed by iono, Zelensky. Also, the one state solution is not advocating for Israeli annexation of all Palestinian territory -- it's advocating for the view that Israel has already de facto annexed Palestine, and that the current Israeli government is implementing a brutal apartheid that needs to end. Calling the whole state something new, giving everyone citizenship, and electing new leaders won't solve everything but it's a valid perspective to have.