5 ms·

People will literally rezone entire cities rather than saying we need to eat less food and workout more.

californical 4y ago
My point was that making it a personal choice seems to be failing us. We’ve been telling people to do that for decades, and they’re not — make it a societal choice so that it’s individuals are automatically enrolled in a system that promotes their health rather than forcing them to sit in a car seat for hours per week
- remarkEon 4y ago
  I find it fascinating, from an social science perspective, that in other critical areas of society social shaming is encouraged, but when it comes to human fitness we will invent PhD theses worth of reasons for why that's not allowed. I 100% agree with you though, the physical structure of (most) US cities makes this difficult if you yourself don't prioritize it, or you can't afford to.
  - chownie 4y ago
    Fat shaming just doesnt work, the only provable outcomes are mental illness and weight gain. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4236245/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4236245/ It's also a huge glaring actor/observer asymmetry issue, you think between the 50's and now human beings innately changed to be lazier, more prone to overconsumption? Why opt for blaming the individual multiplied by 70 million rather than looking at the conditions of their shared environment?
    - midoridensha 4y ago
      >you think between the 50's and now human beings innately changed to be lazier, more prone to overconsumption? Why opt for blaming the individual multiplied by 70 million rather than looking at the conditions of their shared environment? Subdivisions basically didn't exist in the US in the 1950s; they were only just being invented then. People lived in smaller towns and cities and walked around a lot more. Even in the 80s, kids were walking around outside a lot, without adult supervision. Now that's basically illegal in most places, so kids stay in their suburban homes all day playing video games. And, as usual, you can compare to other countries. In other places, there's less of a car culture, people walk around a lot more, and there aren't many obese people.
      - chownie 4y ago
        I'm not certain but I think we're in perfect agreement here. The environment in which people live has changed and I think that should be the obvious first target to change. I think this urge to blame people for the effects of their environment seen in the one of the parent post is an example of a very dark part of our attitude toward change. It is very easy and tempting to short circuit into ridiculing positive changes in favor of instead attempting to fix it by punishment/shaming ("People will literally rezone entire cities rather than saying we need to eat less food and workout more")
- vandreas2 4y ago
  The "you are beautiful no matter how you look" social campaign probably doesn't help here. There are literally visual cues that you 're doing something in excess and your doctor tells you to lose weight but Instagram says it's ok to be obese. I wonder if there's a limit to it, is it still ok to be twice your normal weight overweight?
  - anchochilis 4y ago
    Do you live in the US? Fat people are routinely discriminated against in employment and healthcare. A few Instagram influencers and ad campaigns don't negate that. I have never met a fat person who wasn't aware they are fat. I do know two people who have failed to lose significant weight even after bariatric surgery physically restricted how much they could eat. After even the most extreme medical intervention fails and you are still obese, what can you do? Stay inside your home forever so that thin people are not forced to look at you? Never eat a piece of cake in public? Never go shopping, never date, never dance? Of course not. In the end the only choice is to live your life anyway, in spite of your reduced opportunities and the judgment you receive from others. If you're brave, you might even dare to post photos of yourself on Instagram.
    - stephenbez 4y ago
      > I have never met a fat person who wasn't aware they are fat. "Today, 7 in 10 Americans are obese or overweight, but only 36 percent think they have a weight problem. In other words, close to half the people who are overweight or obese don't think they're overweight or obese." https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/12/01/nearly-half-of-americas-overweight-people-dont-realize-theyre-overweight/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/12/01/nearl...
  - vandreas2 4y ago
    I live in Europe. For employment that demands physical stamina it makes sense that fat people would not be favoured at the extreme level of obesity. My healthcare provider differentiates between overweight and obese and you can't treat triage as discrimination. There's a whole lot of middle ground between staying in your home not eating cake and promoting yourself on Instagram. Date and dance as you see fit.
- ZeroGravitas 4y ago
  When you say "we've been telling people to do that for decades" I'm assuming you're referring to the accumulated scientific wisdom that says eating healthily and getting exercise is good for your health, and not the trillions of dollars spent advertising addictive sugar water, alchohol, cigarettes, sugar coated cereals for kids, subsidized beef and corn syrup and attacking every health recommendation as lies if it threatened someones profits? It might actually be worth telling people to eat healthily and excercise as a consistent message before we abandon the idea.
  - vandreas2 4y ago
    Exactly this. Not sure how much of the scientific messaging reaches the lower socioeconomic subsets of society either, I don't think kids' obesity is because they 've tried everything to lose weight and can't help themselves or rather their parents don't really understand the intricacies of how processed food works. There's something that defies intuition about a 50g mars bar having the same calories as a 300g potato even if most people vaguely understand that 'sugar is bad for you' but can't really put it in perspective, what does that mean in practice? The dosage makes the poison.
nine_k 4y ago
Working out more and eating less is a pain. Rezoning and rebuilding is fun! Jokes aside, an environment that softly pushes people towards better choices has a far, far better chance to push them towards these choices than an oppresive self-discipline regime. In the long term, only the former works.
anchochilis 4y ago
On the contrary, people have been saying we need to eat less food and work out more for decades. The "just educate people and they'll make better choices" approach has not worked.
- vandreas2 4y ago
  Has worked for me. I find the UK food labels on most products quite informative as a rule of thumb. I remember initially being very surprised at some food contains when I started paying attention and how very small things like Mars bars can have so many calories comparatively of course. I think there's something sinister about not wanting the consumer to know what your product contains.
  - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
    Libertarians are fighting for 'food freedom' and escape from these authoritarian rules forcing sellers to inform consumers: https://reason.com/2022/06/18/mandatory-menu-labeling-still-a-flop/ https://reason.com/2022/06/18/mandatory-menu-labeling-still-...
  - anchochilis 4y ago
    This thread is full of people commenting along the lines of "I have been able to manage my weight successfully, so other people must be fat because they're lazy idiots." HN is full of people who will accept nuance and complexity in technical discussions. Why not in this area as well, where individual biology, cultural expectations, economic incentives, and environmental factors intersect with personal choice?
    - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
      There's plenty of victim blaming on technical topics too. Any negative impact of tech on people will have comments saying “well they should have just..."
    - wsc981 4y ago
      Look at this video with fragments from England and Ireland 120 years ago. https://twitter.com/bo66ie29/status/1565100701755314180?s=20&t=82vhuTdb2dR3g8O8V9zmUA https://twitter.com/bo66ie29/status/1565100701755314180?s=20... How many fat people you see? Do you think human biology changed a lot the past 120 years? I think just a bit of movement each day and eating healthy food is enough for 99% of people to prevent getting overweight.
_ph_ 4y ago
The whole concept of "workout" is absurd considering how much effort and energy we spent in removing any physical challenge from our day-to-day life, especially considering how bad for the environment (global warming) the consequences are. I am not saying that people should have to work hard for the simplest things in life, but just designing cities around short walking distances and cycling vs. driving even the shortest distances would mean better health and nicer and healthier cities.
soulofmischief 4y ago
I think you should really think about the connection between public infrastructure and public lifestyle choices. If you think that infrastructure cannot both positively and negatively affect its populace then I'd find that a very interesting opinion on a board of primarily engineers.
maxerickson 4y ago
This dismissal would be more compelling if it was actually clear that most cities are zoned well.
BeFlatXIII 4y ago
Rezoning entire cities also has environmental benefits.

My point was that making it a personal choice seems to be failing us. We’ve been telling people to do that for decades, and they’re not — make it a societal choice so that it’s individuals are automatically enrolled in a system that promotes their health rather than forcing them to sit in a car seat for hours per week

remarkEon 4y ago
I find it fascinating, from an social science perspective, that in other critical areas of society social shaming is encouraged, but when it comes to human fitness we will invent PhD theses worth of reasons for why that's not allowed. I 100% agree with you though, the physical structure of (most) US cities makes this difficult if you yourself don't prioritize it, or you can't afford to.
- chownie 4y ago
  Fat shaming just doesnt work, the only provable outcomes are mental illness and weight gain. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4236245/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4236245/ It's also a huge glaring actor/observer asymmetry issue, you think between the 50's and now human beings innately changed to be lazier, more prone to overconsumption? Why opt for blaming the individual multiplied by 70 million rather than looking at the conditions of their shared environment?
  - midoridensha 4y ago
    >you think between the 50's and now human beings innately changed to be lazier, more prone to overconsumption? Why opt for blaming the individual multiplied by 70 million rather than looking at the conditions of their shared environment? Subdivisions basically didn't exist in the US in the 1950s; they were only just being invented then. People lived in smaller towns and cities and walked around a lot more. Even in the 80s, kids were walking around outside a lot, without adult supervision. Now that's basically illegal in most places, so kids stay in their suburban homes all day playing video games. And, as usual, you can compare to other countries. In other places, there's less of a car culture, people walk around a lot more, and there aren't many obese people.
    - chownie 4y ago
      I'm not certain but I think we're in perfect agreement here. The environment in which people live has changed and I think that should be the obvious first target to change. I think this urge to blame people for the effects of their environment seen in the one of the parent post is an example of a very dark part of our attitude toward change. It is very easy and tempting to short circuit into ridiculing positive changes in favor of instead attempting to fix it by punishment/shaming ("People will literally rezone entire cities rather than saying we need to eat less food and workout more")
vandreas2 4y ago
The "you are beautiful no matter how you look" social campaign probably doesn't help here. There are literally visual cues that you 're doing something in excess and your doctor tells you to lose weight but Instagram says it's ok to be obese. I wonder if there's a limit to it, is it still ok to be twice your normal weight overweight?
- anchochilis 4y ago
  Do you live in the US? Fat people are routinely discriminated against in employment and healthcare. A few Instagram influencers and ad campaigns don't negate that. I have never met a fat person who wasn't aware they are fat. I do know two people who have failed to lose significant weight even after bariatric surgery physically restricted how much they could eat. After even the most extreme medical intervention fails and you are still obese, what can you do? Stay inside your home forever so that thin people are not forced to look at you? Never eat a piece of cake in public? Never go shopping, never date, never dance? Of course not. In the end the only choice is to live your life anyway, in spite of your reduced opportunities and the judgment you receive from others. If you're brave, you might even dare to post photos of yourself on Instagram.
  - stephenbez 4y ago
    > I have never met a fat person who wasn't aware they are fat. "Today, 7 in 10 Americans are obese or overweight, but only 36 percent think they have a weight problem. In other words, close to half the people who are overweight or obese don't think they're overweight or obese." https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/12/01/nearly-half-of-americas-overweight-people-dont-realize-theyre-overweight/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/12/01/nearl...
- vandreas2 4y ago
  I live in Europe. For employment that demands physical stamina it makes sense that fat people would not be favoured at the extreme level of obesity. My healthcare provider differentiates between overweight and obese and you can't treat triage as discrimination. There's a whole lot of middle ground between staying in your home not eating cake and promoting yourself on Instagram. Date and dance as you see fit.
ZeroGravitas 4y ago
When you say "we've been telling people to do that for decades" I'm assuming you're referring to the accumulated scientific wisdom that says eating healthily and getting exercise is good for your health, and not the trillions of dollars spent advertising addictive sugar water, alchohol, cigarettes, sugar coated cereals for kids, subsidized beef and corn syrup and attacking every health recommendation as lies if it threatened someones profits? It might actually be worth telling people to eat healthily and excercise as a consistent message before we abandon the idea.
- vandreas2 4y ago
  Exactly this. Not sure how much of the scientific messaging reaches the lower socioeconomic subsets of society either, I don't think kids' obesity is because they 've tried everything to lose weight and can't help themselves or rather their parents don't really understand the intricacies of how processed food works. There's something that defies intuition about a 50g mars bar having the same calories as a 300g potato even if most people vaguely understand that 'sugar is bad for you' but can't really put it in perspective, what does that mean in practice? The dosage makes the poison.

nine_k 4y ago

Working out more and eating less is a pain. Rezoning and rebuilding is fun! Jokes aside, an environment that softly pushes people towards better choices has a far, far better chance to push them towards these choices than an oppresive self-discipline regime. In the long term, only the former works.

anchochilis 4y ago

On the contrary, people have been saying we need to eat less food and work out more for decades. The "just educate people and they'll make better choices" approach has not worked.

vandreas2 4y ago
Has worked for me. I find the UK food labels on most products quite informative as a rule of thumb. I remember initially being very surprised at some food contains when I started paying attention and how very small things like Mars bars can have so many calories comparatively of course. I think there's something sinister about not wanting the consumer to know what your product contains.
- ZeroGravitas 4y ago
  Libertarians are fighting for 'food freedom' and escape from these authoritarian rules forcing sellers to inform consumers: https://reason.com/2022/06/18/mandatory-menu-labeling-still-a-flop/ https://reason.com/2022/06/18/mandatory-menu-labeling-still-...
- anchochilis 4y ago
  This thread is full of people commenting along the lines of "I have been able to manage my weight successfully, so other people must be fat because they're lazy idiots." HN is full of people who will accept nuance and complexity in technical discussions. Why not in this area as well, where individual biology, cultural expectations, economic incentives, and environmental factors intersect with personal choice?
  - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
    There's plenty of victim blaming on technical topics too. Any negative impact of tech on people will have comments saying “well they should have just..."
  - wsc981 4y ago
    Look at this video with fragments from England and Ireland 120 years ago. https://twitter.com/bo66ie29/status/1565100701755314180?s=20&t=82vhuTdb2dR3g8O8V9zmUA https://twitter.com/bo66ie29/status/1565100701755314180?s=20... How many fat people you see? Do you think human biology changed a lot the past 120 years? I think just a bit of movement each day and eating healthy food is enough for 99% of people to prevent getting overweight.

_ph_ 4y ago

The whole concept of "workout" is absurd considering how much effort and energy we spent in removing any physical challenge from our day-to-day life, especially considering how bad for the environment (global warming) the consequences are. I am not saying that people should have to work hard for the simplest things in life, but just designing cities around short walking distances and cycling vs. driving even the shortest distances would mean better health and nicer and healthier cities.

soulofmischief 4y ago

I think you should really think about the connection between public infrastructure and public lifestyle choices. If you think that infrastructure cannot both positively and negatively affect its populace then I'd find that a very interesting opinion on a board of primarily engineers.

maxerickson 4y ago

This dismissal would be more compelling if it was actually clear that most cities are zoned well.

BeFlatXIII 4y ago

Rezoning entire cities also has environmental benefits.