5 ms·

I really don't understand why things are so different than "back then", as all I can think of is that there was no social media in the 70's and STD's would not

I really don't understand why things are so different than "back then", as all I can think of is that there was no social media in the 70's and STD's would not kill you. There were drugs, there was drink, lots of music and the remnants of getting one's ass shot off in SE Asia. Same courses (Shakespere, Calculus, Chemistry, Physics, Biology, History, ...), same experience of going from a sheltered home life to unsupervised time often in the big city. Where it was up to me to schedule my time and handle my required events. What am I missing that makes things so different and so difficult today? This isn't meant as snark, merely that I didn't have kids and I'm really curious as to why there's such a generational difference. I fully understand how individuals can crash and burn as they did it then as well.

ggm 4y ago
Pace of work, expectations. I got a 2.ii. 79-82 and have worked non-stop including in academia. It's impossible to progress in academia beyond the trivial level without a PhD now. My dad was a full tenured head of department and professor with no PhD. (UK Professor, not US 'any teacher is a professor') -that was just becoming less likely. Now? its functionally impossible unless you have somebody magic like Musk doing a side-gig. Your past is un-erasable. My time in Uni included many things I leave behind me. I can name-drop the UK comic who could have been "sent down" for keeping a York University duck in a cardboard box under his bed, which is luckily (for him) undocumented. Animal cruelty? he'd be in deep shit with the BBC. Or the politician's son arrested for minor dope offenses. Now? Its on tiktok forever. You really cannot progress in some fields (politics) if you enjoy university as much as I did. My Uni experience was fully funded by the state. The state did not demand repayment, and arts was fine. Have fun. Now? the likelihood of a debt you can't service for a poor choice of subject is very real. Truly it's NOT the same course. My field, comp sci, only existed as a part degree at the start of my course and was full degree by the end, we had 10 students and tutorials were 2-to-1 (2 students to one lecturer) and we complained it wasn't the oxbridge experience of 1-to-1. It's simply not comparable to the experience of learning in a modern university. The complexity of the field was tiny by comparison. Eng lit was somewhat the same, still stuck in "modern means 17thC onwards but stops at 1871" but now, eng lit comes with trigger warnings. You can't read half the canon because it's racist or classist or sexist. Also, the gigs were better. But I digress.. Some of it was "we were the top 10%" so it was already ordained we'd be future leaders. Now, 75% of the age group go to uni, and it means less for probably more work. I respect any modern student. I would seriously doubt I would do well in a modern university context. yes, much of the drink/drugs/partaaaaty was the same. And learning to cook. I would argue we paid less % of our stipend as rent, significantly less. I survived 3 years on unemployment benefits including having my rent paid over summer. I know students now who are functionally homeless and live in squalor out of a car and eat ramen every day. TL;DR the expectations on the modern cohort ARE higher than most postwar 1950s/1960s/1970s graduates. Perhaps the modern cohort is closer to the post WW1 who had to live with not having fought and died, and had very high expectations placed on them (especially women)
- analog31 4y ago
  I count myself as extremely lucky that I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I posted on Usenet before realizing the implications of the Internet being a permanent record. That was sometime around 1990 while I was in grad school. It was still possible to get a job as a programmer after taking one course, and knowing a single language well, but not any libraries, OS's, or frameworks.
  - ggm 4y ago
    Most of my usenet stupidity, and the flame wars which got me chucked off JANET mailgroup for a month (along with another person who now is a reasonably senior policy advisor on UK internet policy) got lost when Google decided usenet history was boring and deleted the archives they'd acquired from the previous hoarders on tape. If you were "stupid" before 1987, you are probably safe. In the 88-92 window it's a mixed bag and after 95, you may never escape your mistakes.
- drpancake 4y ago
  You're almost certainly referring to Harry Enfield based on the date you graduated and a quick Google!
  - ggm 4y ago
    Well played. And yes. I doubt he even remembers. Hassling the ducks on the lake is one of the 'you will be sent down' tickboxes now. If you can find the Tory ministers son, you get full marks.
- pjc50 4y ago
  > now, eng lit comes with trigger warnings. You can't read half the canon because it's racist or classist or sexist. This is a gross misrepresentation both of what trigger warnings are for and what the actual relationship of undergraduates and courses to the texts are. And it's undoubtedly based on nonsense coming out of a very small number of American universities. Oxford are still doing a traditional course which is Beowulf in the first part and Victorians in the second: https://www.balliol.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate-admissions/english-reading-list https://www.balliol.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate-admiss... / https://www.balliol.ox.ac.uk/sites/default/files/victorian_literature_-_further_reading.pdf https://www.balliol.ox.ac.uk/sites/default/files/victorian_l... Cambridge have gone freestyle: https://www.english.cam.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/course.htm https://www.english.cam.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/cours... "Uniquely, we do not have a syllabus: instead, students work with their supervisors to devise a programme of study for themselves. There are few English departments left in the world that allow you to study the full historical range of literature in English, and we pride ourselves on the strong grounding this gives our students." "In the first two years of your degree, you cover the full historical sweep of literature written in the English language from the medieval period to the present day" - this sounds like a really large amount of work! A far more serious threat to English Literature is not the "cancellation" of individual authors but the wholesale actual cancellation of courses: https://metro.co.uk/2022/06/27/sheffield-hallam-university-suspends-english-literature-degree-16898879/ https://metro.co.uk/2022/06/27/sheffield-hallam-university-s... > Now, 75% of the age group go to uni It's only just gone over 50%. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-49841620 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-49841620 (I was the last generation to get a student grant, but I had a small loan for living expenses)
sudosysgen 4y ago
Everything has become far more competitive and it is now far easier to crash and burn. I had a professor recently be disappointed that I only have a 3.9 GPA because that meant they'd have less funding if I was to do research for them. Thankfully it didn't matter because I couldn't justify foregoing a well paid internship for that position. This is at a university with very little grade inflation - in many classes the average is a D among those who don't drop out in a department with a sub 20% undergrad graduation rate. At the same time if you want to get ahead in many fields you'll be expected to do 20-40 hours of unpaid work a week, while maintaining crazy high averages. Outside of STEm you often also have to get pretty high academic standards if you ever want to actually use your education. And if you fail out with accumulated student debt where applicable, that's a massive setback that might mean you permanently miss out on financial milestones. At the same time, the internet doesn't forget, so it's also a lot easier to permanently crash and burn socially. And it's getting worse every year, too.
- j7ake 4y ago
  One anecdote about increasing competitiveness: some paths to phd sciences involve now “post bac”. You spend a few years after your bachelors working in a research lab to get your name on a paper and a reference letter to get you into a top PhD program. This postbac, coupled with longer postdocs and tougher tenure track, mean the academic path is getting harder and harder to realise.
  - junofan 4y ago
    It’s a lot easier if you have a relative who’s walked that path. Therefore it’s becoming hereditary at competitive programs.
    - scaredginger 4y ago
      I think 'nepotistic' is a better description
  - bongoman37 4y ago
physicsguy 4y ago
When low percentages went to University it was less competitive. Going to University was enough to get a good job, and now it isn’t.
cannam 4y ago
This is a little odd. There are at least three top-level comments here wondering why anything should be different now from how it was "back in the day", as if that were what the article is about. But the article doesn't appear to suggest that anything has changed. In fact it says things were much the same when the author was at university in the 80s. It's a short, sympathetic comment piece that seems to be intended as a kindness to people who are about to start at university for the first time, surely that's all.

ggm 4y ago

Pace of work, expectations. I got a 2.ii. 79-82 and have worked non-stop including in academia. It's impossible to progress in academia beyond the trivial level without a PhD now. My dad was a full tenured head of department and professor with no PhD. (UK Professor, not US 'any teacher is a professor') -that was just becoming less likely. Now? its functionally impossible unless you have somebody magic like Musk doing a side-gig. Your past is un-erasable. My time in Uni included many things I leave behind me. I can name-drop the UK comic who could have been "sent down" for keeping a York University duck in a cardboard box under his bed, which is luckily (for him) undocumented. Animal cruelty? he'd be in deep shit with the BBC. Or the politician's son arrested for minor dope offenses. Now? Its on tiktok forever. You really cannot progress in some fields (politics) if you enjoy university as much as I did. My Uni experience was fully funded by the state. The state did not demand repayment, and arts was fine. Have fun. Now? the likelihood of a debt you can't service for a poor choice of subject is very real. Truly it's NOT the same course. My field, comp sci, only existed as a part degree at the start of my course and was full degree by the end, we had 10 students and tutorials were 2-to-1 (2 students to one lecturer) and we complained it wasn't the oxbridge experience of 1-to-1. It's simply not comparable to the experience of learning in a modern university. The complexity of the field was tiny by comparison. Eng lit was somewhat the same, still stuck in "modern means 17thC onwards but stops at 1871" but now, eng lit comes with trigger warnings. You can't read half the canon because it's racist or classist or sexist. Also, the gigs were better. But I digress.. Some of it was "we were the top 10%" so it was already ordained we'd be future leaders. Now, 75% of the age group go to uni, and it means less for probably more work. I respect any modern student. I would seriously doubt I would do well in a modern university context. yes, much of the drink/drugs/partaaaaty was the same. And learning to cook. I would argue we paid less % of our stipend as rent, significantly less. I survived 3 years on unemployment benefits including having my rent paid over summer. I know students now who are functionally homeless and live in squalor out of a car and eat ramen every day. TL;DR the expectations on the modern cohort ARE higher than most postwar 1950s/1960s/1970s graduates. Perhaps the modern cohort is closer to the post WW1 who had to live with not having fought and died, and had very high expectations placed on them (especially women)

analog31 4y ago
I count myself as extremely lucky that I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I posted on Usenet before realizing the implications of the Internet being a permanent record. That was sometime around 1990 while I was in grad school. It was still possible to get a job as a programmer after taking one course, and knowing a single language well, but not any libraries, OS's, or frameworks.
- ggm 4y ago
  Most of my usenet stupidity, and the flame wars which got me chucked off JANET mailgroup for a month (along with another person who now is a reasonably senior policy advisor on UK internet policy) got lost when Google decided usenet history was boring and deleted the archives they'd acquired from the previous hoarders on tape. If you were "stupid" before 1987, you are probably safe. In the 88-92 window it's a mixed bag and after 95, you may never escape your mistakes.
drpancake 4y ago
You're almost certainly referring to Harry Enfield based on the date you graduated and a quick Google!
- ggm 4y ago
  Well played. And yes. I doubt he even remembers. Hassling the ducks on the lake is one of the 'you will be sent down' tickboxes now. If you can find the Tory ministers son, you get full marks.
pjc50 4y ago
> now, eng lit comes with trigger warnings. You can't read half the canon because it's racist or classist or sexist. This is a gross misrepresentation both of what trigger warnings are for and what the actual relationship of undergraduates and courses to the texts are. And it's undoubtedly based on nonsense coming out of a very small number of American universities. Oxford are still doing a traditional course which is Beowulf in the first part and Victorians in the second: https://www.balliol.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate-admissions/english-reading-list https://www.balliol.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate-admiss... / https://www.balliol.ox.ac.uk/sites/default/files/victorian_literature_-_further_reading.pdf https://www.balliol.ox.ac.uk/sites/default/files/victorian_l... Cambridge have gone freestyle: https://www.english.cam.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/course.htm https://www.english.cam.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/cours... "Uniquely, we do not have a syllabus: instead, students work with their supervisors to devise a programme of study for themselves. There are few English departments left in the world that allow you to study the full historical range of literature in English, and we pride ourselves on the strong grounding this gives our students." "In the first two years of your degree, you cover the full historical sweep of literature written in the English language from the medieval period to the present day" - this sounds like a really large amount of work! A far more serious threat to English Literature is not the "cancellation" of individual authors but the wholesale actual cancellation of courses: https://metro.co.uk/2022/06/27/sheffield-hallam-university-suspends-english-literature-degree-16898879/ https://metro.co.uk/2022/06/27/sheffield-hallam-university-s... > Now, 75% of the age group go to uni It's only just gone over 50%. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-49841620 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-49841620 (I was the last generation to get a student grant, but I had a small loan for living expenses)

sudosysgen 4y ago

Everything has become far more competitive and it is now far easier to crash and burn. I had a professor recently be disappointed that I only have a 3.9 GPA because that meant they'd have less funding if I was to do research for them. Thankfully it didn't matter because I couldn't justify foregoing a well paid internship for that position. This is at a university with very little grade inflation - in many classes the average is a D among those who don't drop out in a department with a sub 20% undergrad graduation rate. At the same time if you want to get ahead in many fields you'll be expected to do 20-40 hours of unpaid work a week, while maintaining crazy high averages. Outside of STEm you often also have to get pretty high academic standards if you ever want to actually use your education. And if you fail out with accumulated student debt where applicable, that's a massive setback that might mean you permanently miss out on financial milestones. At the same time, the internet doesn't forget, so it's also a lot easier to permanently crash and burn socially. And it's getting worse every year, too.

j7ake 4y ago
One anecdote about increasing competitiveness: some paths to phd sciences involve now “post bac”. You spend a few years after your bachelors working in a research lab to get your name on a paper and a reference letter to get you into a top PhD program. This postbac, coupled with longer postdocs and tougher tenure track, mean the academic path is getting harder and harder to realise.
- junofan 4y ago
  It’s a lot easier if you have a relative who’s walked that path. Therefore it’s becoming hereditary at competitive programs.
  - scaredginger 4y ago
    I think 'nepotistic' is a better description
- bongoman37 4y ago

physicsguy 4y ago

When low percentages went to University it was less competitive. Going to University was enough to get a good job, and now it isn’t.

cannam 4y ago

This is a little odd. There are at least three top-level comments here wondering why anything should be different now from how it was "back in the day", as if that were what the article is about. But the article doesn't appear to suggest that anything has changed. In fact it says things were much the same when the author was at university in the 80s. It's a short, sympathetic comment piece that seems to be intended as a kindness to people who are about to start at university for the first time, surely that's all.