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> but that is the price that must be paid if Europe is to be worth living in. Could you clarify, is it going to be worth living in because, by buying Qatar's L

> but that is the price that must be paid if Europe is to be worth living in. Could you clarify, is it going to be worth living in because, by buying Qatar's LNG, it will help Qatar to fund Jabhat al-Nusra in waging a war in Syria? [1] [2] [1] https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/qatar-funnelled-millions-of-dollars-to-nusra-front-terrorists-in-syria-x5rnbsr3l https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/qatar-funnelled-millions-... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Nusra_Front#Qatari_involvement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Nusra_Front#Qatari_involvem...

scyzoryk_xyz 4y ago
You are being downvoted but I agree - us not wanting to finance that war does not mean all the other economic relationships are suddenly made “clean”. This however is also a case of a “whatabout” argument. Anything from recycling to humanitarian aid can be effectively shot down in a debate with it. Fact is - Ukraine is closer, and it has a more significant impact on the EU. There are Ukrainians in my neighborhood now. And their presence is confronting everyone in our society with the questions of whether we are willing to stand by our ideals. Whether we are willing to open up our homes, make our neighborhoods available, provide jobs etc. So far the answer has been yes, and I have found my country worth living in.
- ghostwriter 4y ago
  The whatabout argument is needed to check whether the principles stated by politicians are upheld and enforced universally across the board, as we all are supposed to support and pay for the moral principles that guide the current counter-measures. This would indeed make european countries visibly worth living in. But if the principles are being replaced by non-consistent utilitarian opportunities, because they make for a convenient political climate of non-responsibility for the people in charge, I don't see the extra price imposed on european citizens to be morally worth paying. The truth is, there doesn't seem to be an option that would allow european leaders to morally avoid all economic dealings with tyrants. Hence diplomacy exists since the dawn of ages, and politicans had better learn and practice it to keep the tyrants occupied with their domestic issues, as it helps to propagate peace better than sanctions, and because the only other alternative to it is a growing military confrontation.
  - scyzoryk_xyz 4y ago
    Unless the tyrants have a firm grip on their domestic issues and are executing a highly kinetic attack abroad. Then the sanctions are merely sand being thrown in the face, with hope of maybe blunting the short-term impact. There was no diplomatic solution here. For 20+ years the West has been negotiating. Even delivering what was necessary for an economic boom to the other side in the 00’s-10’s. But there was never any good faith from the other side I don’t think: only a cynical belief that the West is actually just run by tyrants who run it all from the shadows. That the West is in a position to sell off independent countries, and that it is in control of it’s own “sphere of influence”. This is where whatabout arguments fail imo. They don’t work when you realize that the “West” is a distributed network and no one is in “charge”. Politicians only uphold principles as far as they need to while juggling other parts of their individual brands. I think it would be a deeper philosophical topic whether keeping “peace” is the only goal worth pursuing.

scyzoryk_xyz 4y ago

You are being downvoted but I agree - us not wanting to finance that war does not mean all the other economic relationships are suddenly made “clean”. This however is also a case of a “whatabout” argument. Anything from recycling to humanitarian aid can be effectively shot down in a debate with it. Fact is - Ukraine is closer, and it has a more significant impact on the EU. There are Ukrainians in my neighborhood now. And their presence is confronting everyone in our society with the questions of whether we are willing to stand by our ideals. Whether we are willing to open up our homes, make our neighborhoods available, provide jobs etc. So far the answer has been yes, and I have found my country worth living in.

ghostwriter 4y ago
The whatabout argument is needed to check whether the principles stated by politicians are upheld and enforced universally across the board, as we all are supposed to support and pay for the moral principles that guide the current counter-measures. This would indeed make european countries visibly worth living in. But if the principles are being replaced by non-consistent utilitarian opportunities, because they make for a convenient political climate of non-responsibility for the people in charge, I don't see the extra price imposed on european citizens to be morally worth paying. The truth is, there doesn't seem to be an option that would allow european leaders to morally avoid all economic dealings with tyrants. Hence diplomacy exists since the dawn of ages, and politicans had better learn and practice it to keep the tyrants occupied with their domestic issues, as it helps to propagate peace better than sanctions, and because the only other alternative to it is a growing military confrontation.
- scyzoryk_xyz 4y ago
  Unless the tyrants have a firm grip on their domestic issues and are executing a highly kinetic attack abroad. Then the sanctions are merely sand being thrown in the face, with hope of maybe blunting the short-term impact. There was no diplomatic solution here. For 20+ years the West has been negotiating. Even delivering what was necessary for an economic boom to the other side in the 00’s-10’s. But there was never any good faith from the other side I don’t think: only a cynical belief that the West is actually just run by tyrants who run it all from the shadows. That the West is in a position to sell off independent countries, and that it is in control of it’s own “sphere of influence”. This is where whatabout arguments fail imo. They don’t work when you realize that the “West” is a distributed network and no one is in “charge”. Politicians only uphold principles as far as they need to while juggling other parts of their individual brands. I think it would be a deeper philosophical topic whether keeping “peace” is the only goal worth pursuing.