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It seems ridiculous that we don't officially acknowledge Taiwan. But to say it's not China, might be misleading. Does the Taiwanese government still make clai

by xedrac 4y ago

It seems ridiculous that we don't officially acknowledge Taiwan. But to say it's not China, might be misleading. Does the Taiwanese government still make claim on China?

xster 4y ago
I think it's only ridiculous to the recipients of US MSM (which don't get me wrong, is hegemonic, but still insular). There's no confusion to it from the perspective of the RoC government (which claims a much wider legacy of the Qing government than the PRC does), the US government's official stance and 180 of 193 UN member states.
- ajmurmann 4y ago
  They do have a separate government in practice and seem to like it that way. Isn't that reason to see it as two separate countries?
  - derefr 4y ago
    Not if both governments consider the people living on the other government’s landmass to be rightfully their citizens as well. A close analogy might be to East and West Germany: both agreed that there should be just one place called “Germany”; they just didn’t agree on who should be in charge of it.
- throwaway_4ever 4y ago
  RoC only claims that because any deviation from their existing policy is "declaring independence" and what China wants as an excuse to invade and kill millions of people. Which is only ridiculous and unknown to consumers of China and Russia MSM.
TheRealPomax 4y ago
To say "to say it's not China, might be misleading" feels like it's time to (re)look up the history of modern China, starting with the Guangzhou uprisings and following that all the way to Mao literally wiping the slate and resetting what "China" meant (in the most literal sense: modern China isn't even 50 years old, the previous culture was actively murdered out of existence), while the original Chinese government fled to Taiwan in the expectation to eventually go back home and retake their seats =) It's not China, because of too much history.
speeder 4y ago
Kinda yes. To start, why Taiwan exists? Its roots are related to how China became a republic in first place, when the Emperor was booted from power, China quickly became the land of warlordism, with generals treating their subordinates as personal army, and each warlord promoting a different ideology. Although officially in history books people separate the period as many smaller civil wars, the fact is that China is having a single civil war that started back when the monarchy ended. Taiwan itself originated when one of the groups in the civil war (The right Kuomingtang, beacuse by the way, the "Left Kuomingtang" is a thing and one of the few legal parties in China) was losing the war on mainland China, and had a golden opportunity in Taiwan: Taiwan had been conquered some time before by Japan, and after WW2 ended, it was returned to China, the governor of Taiwan was very corrupt and ended pissing off the population that rioted, so Kuomingtang sent soldiers there to massacre the rioters (alongside a lot of random people). After a while they ended just sending everyone over and basically conquering the island by force. So in a way, communist party "won" the civil war, they had almost the entirety of Mainland China, and started their communist dictatorship. Meanwhile, Kuomingtang as they arrived on Taiwan, concluded the Taiwanese were too "japanified" and weren't "chinese enough", and decided that the right thing to do is murder people and terrorize them until they become Chinese, similar to what Mao was doing to "not communist enough" people. People call this period of time the "white terror" So currently there are three positions about this: 1. Mainland government and a lot of people living there, support the idea Communist party must finish winning the civil war and erase Kuomingtang from the face of the earth, and take Taiwan. 2. Kuomingtang still exists, and their supporters among Taiwan's population believe they should prepare and then fight back, and win the civil war, wipe communist party out of the face of the earth, and re-take mainland China. 3. A variety of people, including a lot of native Taiwanese and pro-japan Taiwanese, want Taiwan to be a real country, that is not China, those that are more dictatorial in views want both the Communist party and the Kuomingtang gone. Views 1 and 2 are both called "one china policy" and is how you manage to have strategic ambiguity. View 3 is what communist party is accusing Pelosi of spousing. As for Taiwan current views: officially the government mostly claims there is one China, to avoid resuming the hot war. But pro-independence parties been making gains in elections. It might be just a matter of time until someone officially declares independence and the temporary (even if long lasting) truce ends. I know a little some Taiwanese people, and can say they have a variety of views, one of the most obvious ones is a guy making indie games that put flag of Taiwan on his games splash screen with the phrase: "If you are not in favor of Taiwan independence you aren't human, and fuck Kuomingtang". I won't say name of games don't ask.

by xedrac 4y ago

It seems ridiculous that we don't officially acknowledge Taiwan. But to say it's not China, might be misleading. Does the Taiwanese government still make claim on China?

xster 4y ago

I think it's only ridiculous to the recipients of US MSM (which don't get me wrong, is hegemonic, but still insular). There's no confusion to it from the perspective of the RoC government (which claims a much wider legacy of the Qing government than the PRC does), the US government's official stance and 180 of 193 UN member states.

ajmurmann 4y ago
They do have a separate government in practice and seem to like it that way. Isn't that reason to see it as two separate countries?
- derefr 4y ago
  Not if both governments consider the people living on the other government’s landmass to be rightfully their citizens as well. A close analogy might be to East and West Germany: both agreed that there should be just one place called “Germany”; they just didn’t agree on who should be in charge of it.
throwaway_4ever 4y ago
RoC only claims that because any deviation from their existing policy is "declaring independence" and what China wants as an excuse to invade and kill millions of people. Which is only ridiculous and unknown to consumers of China and Russia MSM.

TheRealPomax 4y ago

To say "to say it's not China, might be misleading" feels like it's time to (re)look up the history of modern China, starting with the Guangzhou uprisings and following that all the way to Mao literally wiping the slate and resetting what "China" meant (in the most literal sense: modern China isn't even 50 years old, the previous culture was actively murdered out of existence), while the original Chinese government fled to Taiwan in the expectation to eventually go back home and retake their seats =) It's not China, because of too much history.

speeder 4y ago

Kinda yes. To start, why Taiwan exists? Its roots are related to how China became a republic in first place, when the Emperor was booted from power, China quickly became the land of warlordism, with generals treating their subordinates as personal army, and each warlord promoting a different ideology. Although officially in history books people separate the period as many smaller civil wars, the fact is that China is having a single civil war that started back when the monarchy ended. Taiwan itself originated when one of the groups in the civil war (The right Kuomingtang, beacuse by the way, the "Left Kuomingtang" is a thing and one of the few legal parties in China) was losing the war on mainland China, and had a golden opportunity in Taiwan: Taiwan had been conquered some time before by Japan, and after WW2 ended, it was returned to China, the governor of Taiwan was very corrupt and ended pissing off the population that rioted, so Kuomingtang sent soldiers there to massacre the rioters (alongside a lot of random people). After a while they ended just sending everyone over and basically conquering the island by force. So in a way, communist party "won" the civil war, they had almost the entirety of Mainland China, and started their communist dictatorship. Meanwhile, Kuomingtang as they arrived on Taiwan, concluded the Taiwanese were too "japanified" and weren't "chinese enough", and decided that the right thing to do is murder people and terrorize them until they become Chinese, similar to what Mao was doing to "not communist enough" people. People call this period of time the "white terror" So currently there are three positions about this: 1. Mainland government and a lot of people living there, support the idea Communist party must finish winning the civil war and erase Kuomingtang from the face of the earth, and take Taiwan. 2. Kuomingtang still exists, and their supporters among Taiwan's population believe they should prepare and then fight back, and win the civil war, wipe communist party out of the face of the earth, and re-take mainland China. 3. A variety of people, including a lot of native Taiwanese and pro-japan Taiwanese, want Taiwan to be a real country, that is not China, those that are more dictatorial in views want both the Communist party and the Kuomingtang gone. Views 1 and 2 are both called "one china policy" and is how you manage to have strategic ambiguity. View 3 is what communist party is accusing Pelosi of spousing. As for Taiwan current views: officially the government mostly claims there is one China, to avoid resuming the hot war. But pro-independence parties been making gains in elections. It might be just a matter of time until someone officially declares independence and the temporary (even if long lasting) truce ends. I know a little some Taiwanese people, and can say they have a variety of views, one of the most obvious ones is a guy making indie games that put flag of Taiwan on his games splash screen with the phrase: "If you are not in favor of Taiwan independence you aren't human, and fuck Kuomingtang". I won't say name of games don't ask.