5 ms·

Does that mean the US is acknowledging that Taiwan isn't China?

xedrac 4y ago
It seems ridiculous that we don't officially acknowledge Taiwan. But to say it's not China, might be misleading. Does the Taiwanese government still make claim on China?
- xster 4y ago
  I think it's only ridiculous to the recipients of US MSM (which don't get me wrong, is hegemonic, but still insular). There's no confusion to it from the perspective of the RoC government (which claims a much wider legacy of the Qing government than the PRC does), the US government's official stance and 180 of 193 UN member states.
  - ajmurmann 4y ago
    They do have a separate government in practice and seem to like it that way. Isn't that reason to see it as two separate countries?
    - derefr 4y ago
      Not if both governments consider the people living on the other government’s landmass to be rightfully their citizens as well. A close analogy might be to East and West Germany: both agreed that there should be just one place called “Germany”; they just didn’t agree on who should be in charge of it.
  - throwaway_4ever 4y ago
    RoC only claims that because any deviation from their existing policy is "declaring independence" and what China wants as an excuse to invade and kill millions of people. Which is only ridiculous and unknown to consumers of China and Russia MSM.
- TheRealPomax 4y ago
  To say "to say it's not China, might be misleading" feels like it's time to (re)look up the history of modern China, starting with the Guangzhou uprisings and following that all the way to Mao literally wiping the slate and resetting what "China" meant (in the most literal sense: modern China isn't even 50 years old, the previous culture was actively murdered out of existence), while the original Chinese government fled to Taiwan in the expectation to eventually go back home and retake their seats =) It's not China, because of too much history.
- speeder 4y ago
  Kinda yes. To start, why Taiwan exists? Its roots are related to how China became a republic in first place, when the Emperor was booted from power, China quickly became the land of warlordism, with generals treating their subordinates as personal army, and each warlord promoting a different ideology. Although officially in history books people separate the period as many smaller civil wars, the fact is that China is having a single civil war that started back when the monarchy ended. Taiwan itself originated when one of the groups in the civil war (The right Kuomingtang, beacuse by the way, the "Left Kuomingtang" is a thing and one of the few legal parties in China) was losing the war on mainland China, and had a golden opportunity in Taiwan: Taiwan had been conquered some time before by Japan, and after WW2 ended, it was returned to China, the governor of Taiwan was very corrupt and ended pissing off the population that rioted, so Kuomingtang sent soldiers there to massacre the rioters (alongside a lot of random people). After a while they ended just sending everyone over and basically conquering the island by force. So in a way, communist party "won" the civil war, they had almost the entirety of Mainland China, and started their communist dictatorship. Meanwhile, Kuomingtang as they arrived on Taiwan, concluded the Taiwanese were too "japanified" and weren't "chinese enough", and decided that the right thing to do is murder people and terrorize them until they become Chinese, similar to what Mao was doing to "not communist enough" people. People call this period of time the "white terror" So currently there are three positions about this: 1. Mainland government and a lot of people living there, support the idea Communist party must finish winning the civil war and erase Kuomingtang from the face of the earth, and take Taiwan. 2. Kuomingtang still exists, and their supporters among Taiwan's population believe they should prepare and then fight back, and win the civil war, wipe communist party out of the face of the earth, and re-take mainland China. 3. A variety of people, including a lot of native Taiwanese and pro-japan Taiwanese, want Taiwan to be a real country, that is not China, those that are more dictatorial in views want both the Communist party and the Kuomingtang gone. Views 1 and 2 are both called "one china policy" and is how you manage to have strategic ambiguity. View 3 is what communist party is accusing Pelosi of spousing. As for Taiwan current views: officially the government mostly claims there is one China, to avoid resuming the hot war. But pro-independence parties been making gains in elections. It might be just a matter of time until someone officially declares independence and the temporary (even if long lasting) truce ends. I know a little some Taiwanese people, and can say they have a variety of views, one of the most obvious ones is a guy making indie games that put flag of Taiwan on his games splash screen with the phrase: "If you are not in favor of Taiwan independence you aren't human, and fuck Kuomingtang". I won't say name of games don't ask.
2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
Taiwan is usually treated differently such as being exempt from the Chinese tariffs recently.
samstave 4y ago
Maybe because the M2 is a TMSC made unit made in TW and there is no way Tim Apple is going to not be selling to the biggest market.. How is he going to make 5 Trillion in ShareHolder Value by 2025? - We don't need to "officially" recognize Taiwan when many congress folks invest heavily there. Don't unplug the circuit that feeds you. -- https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/4428/text?r=4&s=1 https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/442... Whit the the new delegation headed to Taiwan, they probably do not want to upset the Logan Act: The Logan Act (1 Stat. 613, 18 U.S.C. § 953, enacted January 30, 1799) is a United States federal law that criminalizes negotiation by unauthorized American citizens with foreign governments having a dispute with the United States. The intent behind the Act is to prevent unauthorized negotiations from undermining the government’s position.[2] The Act was passed following George Logan’s unauthorized negotiations with France in 1798, and was signed into law by President John Adams on January 30, 1799. The Act was amended in 1994, changing the penalty for violation from “fined $5,000” to “fined under this title”; this appears to be the only amendment to the Act.[2] Violation of the Logan Act is a felony. --- If we officially recognize Taiwan - then we are in dispute with China - and that fucks up a lot of things. Its also why certain investments are funneled through Proxy Countries, such has been done recently through Ukraine...
- TheRealPomax 4y ago
  > We don't need to "officially" recognize Taiwan when many congress folks invest heavily there. Fun fact about laws: yeah you do. You can only litigate the letter of the law, not the spirit. If the law says "you cannot export to China" and the fabs are in Taiwan, then either NVidia's breaking the law by default, or they're not and the US officially recognizes Taiwan as not being part of China. Whether that's what they intentionally went for when they wrote this: preeeetty sure it wasn't, but they just created a potentially massive legal situation.
  - IanCal 4y ago
    How is this not just solved by issuing Nvidia a license?
  - km3r 4y ago
_-david-_ 4y ago
No. The only countries which officially recognize Taiwan as independent are: Belize, Guatemala, Haiti, Holy See (Vatican City), Honduras, Marshall Islands, Nauru, Palau, Paraguay, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, and Tuvalu.
- TheRealPomax 4y ago
  Slightly missed the point: NVidia uses TSMC to make their GPUs. TSMC is in (as the name suggests) Taiwan, so either NVidia -by default- is violating this order by exporting to China because the fabs are in China, or they're not exporting to China because the US now officially recognizes Taiwan as "not China".
  - majormajor 4y ago
    This seems like an attempt to play lawyerball and find larger significance than exists in a fact. For instance, the US recognizes Taiwan passports for visitors, those are not China passports... and they treat visitors differently, see how Taiwan is on this list and China is not: https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/assets/documents/2017-Dec/Six-Month%20Club%20Update122017.pdf https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/assets/documents/201... So "by default" the US already "officially" recognizes Taiwan as "not China." I think the mistake here is confusing de facto with "officially." (To put it another way: even assuming your point that "technically" the US could try to prosecute Nvidia for this and a court would get the question of "is this China" - but do you actually think the US will? Or will they continue to walk the same line they've walked for decades in the same situation?)
    - TheRealPomax 4y ago
      > This seems like an attempt to play lawyerball Yes, that's literally what the original question was?
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
tesseract 4y ago
For a long time the US has more or less treated Taiwan and mainland China as separate countries for all practical purposes, including trade regulations, while employing careful diplomatic language to avoid officially stating as much. It is a situation that is much more complicated in theory than it is in practice.
spywaregorilla 4y ago
Pelosi's visit was a sufficient statement, especially in light of their military bravado. China made a bluff, the US called it, and China backed down.
- TheRealPomax 4y ago
  In so many ways: it really wasn't. China made a bluff, because that's what you do when you're in power in China, and the US went "we're not Chinese" and then China went "k" and nothing happened and no one cared. China didn't back down, they never stepped up. Blustering is literally part of "that just what you do". You don't call someone's bluff in China, you never believed them in the first place, you only nodded initially because that's just what you do.
  - spywaregorilla 4y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%27s_final_warning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%27s_final_warning China cared a lot. For sure, the US didn't believe china would do anything. The stance of the US is clear though. China is under US protection. Doubly so in light of the recent 1.1 billion dollar military aid deal: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-08-30/biden-administration-readies-1-1-billion-ams-sale-to-taiwan https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-08-30/biden-adm...
    - dirtyid 4y ago
      PRC set new military norm across the strait completely uncontested, and now post Pelosi policy wank in US is how to reset that new balance... and the answer was... 2 DDGs transiting through the strait, aka nothing. Not even a carrier. PRC chipped more away at defacto TW soverienty than US gained trying to boost TW dejure status. >China's final warning It's hilarious when people daftly throw this Soviet meme from the 60 which ended in Sino-Soviet border war in 69. PRC has gone to war with US+UN, USSR, India... threatend UK over HK handover, and supplied Vietnam against France over security concerns much smaller than TW. That makes PRC the only country who has no qualms with going hot with EVERY NPT nuclear state. China's final warning has consistently preluded to war.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

It seems ridiculous that we don't officially acknowledge Taiwan. But to say it's not China, might be misleading. Does the Taiwanese government still make claim on China?

xster 4y ago
I think it's only ridiculous to the recipients of US MSM (which don't get me wrong, is hegemonic, but still insular). There's no confusion to it from the perspective of the RoC government (which claims a much wider legacy of the Qing government than the PRC does), the US government's official stance and 180 of 193 UN member states.
- ajmurmann 4y ago
  They do have a separate government in practice and seem to like it that way. Isn't that reason to see it as two separate countries?
  - derefr 4y ago
    Not if both governments consider the people living on the other government’s landmass to be rightfully their citizens as well. A close analogy might be to East and West Germany: both agreed that there should be just one place called “Germany”; they just didn’t agree on who should be in charge of it.
- throwaway_4ever 4y ago
  RoC only claims that because any deviation from their existing policy is "declaring independence" and what China wants as an excuse to invade and kill millions of people. Which is only ridiculous and unknown to consumers of China and Russia MSM.
TheRealPomax 4y ago
To say "to say it's not China, might be misleading" feels like it's time to (re)look up the history of modern China, starting with the Guangzhou uprisings and following that all the way to Mao literally wiping the slate and resetting what "China" meant (in the most literal sense: modern China isn't even 50 years old, the previous culture was actively murdered out of existence), while the original Chinese government fled to Taiwan in the expectation to eventually go back home and retake their seats =) It's not China, because of too much history.
speeder 4y ago
Kinda yes. To start, why Taiwan exists? Its roots are related to how China became a republic in first place, when the Emperor was booted from power, China quickly became the land of warlordism, with generals treating their subordinates as personal army, and each warlord promoting a different ideology. Although officially in history books people separate the period as many smaller civil wars, the fact is that China is having a single civil war that started back when the monarchy ended. Taiwan itself originated when one of the groups in the civil war (The right Kuomingtang, beacuse by the way, the "Left Kuomingtang" is a thing and one of the few legal parties in China) was losing the war on mainland China, and had a golden opportunity in Taiwan: Taiwan had been conquered some time before by Japan, and after WW2 ended, it was returned to China, the governor of Taiwan was very corrupt and ended pissing off the population that rioted, so Kuomingtang sent soldiers there to massacre the rioters (alongside a lot of random people). After a while they ended just sending everyone over and basically conquering the island by force. So in a way, communist party "won" the civil war, they had almost the entirety of Mainland China, and started their communist dictatorship. Meanwhile, Kuomingtang as they arrived on Taiwan, concluded the Taiwanese were too "japanified" and weren't "chinese enough", and decided that the right thing to do is murder people and terrorize them until they become Chinese, similar to what Mao was doing to "not communist enough" people. People call this period of time the "white terror" So currently there are three positions about this: 1. Mainland government and a lot of people living there, support the idea Communist party must finish winning the civil war and erase Kuomingtang from the face of the earth, and take Taiwan. 2. Kuomingtang still exists, and their supporters among Taiwan's population believe they should prepare and then fight back, and win the civil war, wipe communist party out of the face of the earth, and re-take mainland China. 3. A variety of people, including a lot of native Taiwanese and pro-japan Taiwanese, want Taiwan to be a real country, that is not China, those that are more dictatorial in views want both the Communist party and the Kuomingtang gone. Views 1 and 2 are both called "one china policy" and is how you manage to have strategic ambiguity. View 3 is what communist party is accusing Pelosi of spousing. As for Taiwan current views: officially the government mostly claims there is one China, to avoid resuming the hot war. But pro-independence parties been making gains in elections. It might be just a matter of time until someone officially declares independence and the temporary (even if long lasting) truce ends. I know a little some Taiwanese people, and can say they have a variety of views, one of the most obvious ones is a guy making indie games that put flag of Taiwan on his games splash screen with the phrase: "If you are not in favor of Taiwan independence you aren't human, and fuck Kuomingtang". I won't say name of games don't ask.

2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago

Taiwan is usually treated differently such as being exempt from the Chinese tariffs recently.

samstave 4y ago

Maybe because the M2 is a TMSC made unit made in TW and there is no way Tim Apple is going to not be selling to the biggest market.. How is he going to make 5 Trillion in ShareHolder Value by 2025? - We don't need to "officially" recognize Taiwan when many congress folks invest heavily there. Don't unplug the circuit that feeds you. -- https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/4428/text?r=4&s=1 https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/442... Whit the the new delegation headed to Taiwan, they probably do not want to upset the Logan Act: The Logan Act (1 Stat. 613, 18 U.S.C. § 953, enacted January 30, 1799) is a United States federal law that criminalizes negotiation by unauthorized American citizens with foreign governments having a dispute with the United States. The intent behind the Act is to prevent unauthorized negotiations from undermining the government’s position.[2] The Act was passed following George Logan’s unauthorized negotiations with France in 1798, and was signed into law by President John Adams on January 30, 1799. The Act was amended in 1994, changing the penalty for violation from “fined $5,000” to “fined under this title”; this appears to be the only amendment to the Act.[2] Violation of the Logan Act is a felony. --- If we officially recognize Taiwan - then we are in dispute with China - and that fucks up a lot of things. Its also why certain investments are funneled through Proxy Countries, such has been done recently through Ukraine...

TheRealPomax 4y ago
> We don't need to "officially" recognize Taiwan when many congress folks invest heavily there. Fun fact about laws: yeah you do. You can only litigate the letter of the law, not the spirit. If the law says "you cannot export to China" and the fabs are in Taiwan, then either NVidia's breaking the law by default, or they're not and the US officially recognizes Taiwan as not being part of China. Whether that's what they intentionally went for when they wrote this: preeeetty sure it wasn't, but they just created a potentially massive legal situation.
- IanCal 4y ago
  How is this not just solved by issuing Nvidia a license?
- km3r 4y ago

_-david-_ 4y ago

No. The only countries which officially recognize Taiwan as independent are: Belize, Guatemala, Haiti, Holy See (Vatican City), Honduras, Marshall Islands, Nauru, Palau, Paraguay, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, and Tuvalu.

TheRealPomax 4y ago
Slightly missed the point: NVidia uses TSMC to make their GPUs. TSMC is in (as the name suggests) Taiwan, so either NVidia -by default- is violating this order by exporting to China because the fabs are in China, or they're not exporting to China because the US now officially recognizes Taiwan as "not China".
- majormajor 4y ago
  This seems like an attempt to play lawyerball and find larger significance than exists in a fact. For instance, the US recognizes Taiwan passports for visitors, those are not China passports... and they treat visitors differently, see how Taiwan is on this list and China is not: https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/assets/documents/2017-Dec/Six-Month%20Club%20Update122017.pdf https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/assets/documents/201... So "by default" the US already "officially" recognizes Taiwan as "not China." I think the mistake here is confusing de facto with "officially." (To put it another way: even assuming your point that "technically" the US could try to prosecute Nvidia for this and a court would get the question of "is this China" - but do you actually think the US will? Or will they continue to walk the same line they've walked for decades in the same situation?)
  - TheRealPomax 4y ago
    > This seems like an attempt to play lawyerball Yes, that's literally what the original question was?
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]

tesseract 4y ago

For a long time the US has more or less treated Taiwan and mainland China as separate countries for all practical purposes, including trade regulations, while employing careful diplomatic language to avoid officially stating as much. It is a situation that is much more complicated in theory than it is in practice.

spywaregorilla 4y ago

Pelosi's visit was a sufficient statement, especially in light of their military bravado. China made a bluff, the US called it, and China backed down.

TheRealPomax 4y ago
In so many ways: it really wasn't. China made a bluff, because that's what you do when you're in power in China, and the US went "we're not Chinese" and then China went "k" and nothing happened and no one cared. China didn't back down, they never stepped up. Blustering is literally part of "that just what you do". You don't call someone's bluff in China, you never believed them in the first place, you only nodded initially because that's just what you do.
- spywaregorilla 4y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%27s_final_warning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%27s_final_warning China cared a lot. For sure, the US didn't believe china would do anything. The stance of the US is clear though. China is under US protection. Doubly so in light of the recent 1.1 billion dollar military aid deal: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-08-30/biden-administration-readies-1-1-billion-ams-sale-to-taiwan https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-08-30/biden-adm...
  - dirtyid 4y ago
    PRC set new military norm across the strait completely uncontested, and now post Pelosi policy wank in US is how to reset that new balance... and the answer was... 2 DDGs transiting through the strait, aka nothing. Not even a carrier. PRC chipped more away at defacto TW soverienty than US gained trying to boost TW dejure status. >China's final warning It's hilarious when people daftly throw this Soviet meme from the 60 which ended in Sino-Soviet border war in 69. PRC has gone to war with US+UN, USSR, India... threatend UK over HK handover, and supplied Vietnam against France over security concerns much smaller than TW. That makes PRC the only country who has no qualms with going hot with EVERY NPT nuclear state. China's final warning has consistently preluded to war.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]