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He saves taxpayers billions of dollars bidding on competitive contracts providing the government with launch services (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_launc

He saves taxpayers billions of dollars bidding on competitive contracts providing the government with launch services (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_launch_market_competition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_launch_market_competitio...). He has an ambitious plan to send people to Mars which you don't happen to like.... So what's step 3? Where's the scam?

tsimionescu 4y ago
It's not that "I don't like" the plan, it's that the plan is impossible. We don't have anything like the technology required to created a self-sustaining colony on Mars, and we may never have it. Also, I'm not saying that SpaceX or Tesla are a scam, they are clearly companies that have achieved huge milestones and are producing and selling real products. I'm just saying that he massively over-promises and over-hypes his products, far beyond what other CEOs of actual companies do. He does sometimes end up over promising so much that he has run afoul of false advertising laws, or very near - particularly with "full self-driving".
- throwawaylinux 4y ago
  It is that you don't like it, unless you know exactly what his goal is and are in an authoritative position to say it is impossible. You also are saying they're scams. > Well, I should say for all of these, any other CEO that is not running a scam company. And just about all the rocket and self driving and electric car companies and government organizations I listed massively over promised things. Tesla and Space X aren't the worst of the bunch as far as I can see. How are you measuring these over promises compared with others? I think what this looks like is you just personally hate Musk and are trying to come up with reasons for it that don't sound petty or unreasonable. You don't have to, you're allowed to hate him for whatever reason you like, and you don't have to explain yourself to anybody.
  - tsimionescu 4y ago
    > It is that you don't like it, unless you know exactly what his goal is and are in an authoritative position to say it is impossible. He is saying that his goal is to make humanity multi-planetary, so that it can survive a disaster that may happen to the earth. This goal is impossible with anything resembling current technology. This is obvious if you think about it even for a little bit. So it's either a lie, or he hasn't thought about it for more than a little bit. > You also are saying they're scams. No I'm not. I'll repeat it again: SpaceX and Tesla are serious companies producing worthwhile products that people want. They have both broken ground in areas where no company has broken ground for a long long time, and they have generally left older companies in their spaces in the dust. This doesn't mean that Musk doesn't try to present them as even more than they actually are, for purposes that I'm sure are part ego boosting, part clever marketing. He often outright lies while doing so, or promises impossible goals in impossible timelines.
    - throwawaylinux 4y ago
      > He is saying that his goal is to make humanity multi-planetary, so that it can survive a disaster that may happen to the earth. Great, that's a cool goal. Especially with so much concern about existential threats to humanity on earth. > This goal is impossible with anything resembling current technology. This is obvious if you think about it even for a little bit. So it's either a lie, or he hasn't thought about it for more than a little bit. Or he wants to improve on current technology, like he's been doing. > No I'm not. I'll repeat it again: SpaceX and Tesla are serious companies producing worthwhile products that people want. They have both broken ground in areas where no company has broken ground for a long long time, and they have generally left older companies in their spaces in the dust. Okay you backed down on that now, but you did say it before in the part I quoted. > This doesn't mean that Musk doesn't try to present them as even more than they actually are, Like all companies including the many competitors I listed. > for purposes that I'm sure are part ego boosting, part clever marketing. He often outright lies while doing so, or promises impossible goals in impossible timelines. I still think it's that you hate Musk and are fixating on him. When I asked you to explain why it's a scam for example, you couldn't. So just a bit more thinking through things seems to help bring a bit more clarity and perspective. I mean you're asking about other companies and CEOs, I can't understand it you must be willfully looking the other way. The CEO of BP has has branded himself a visionary leader who is fighting climate change, for example. And that kind of bullshit is common among petroleum corporations, that was just the first example I searched for. So, it's just all pretty rich to hear you talking about how other CEOs are great and don't do all these terrible things you imagine Musk does. I mean, there are perfectly good reasons to hate Musk, but when you start trying to say other CEOs are much better by comparison and that's your justification for it, I think that demonstrates it's not very rational in this case.

tsimionescu 4y ago

It's not that "I don't like" the plan, it's that the plan is impossible. We don't have anything like the technology required to created a self-sustaining colony on Mars, and we may never have it. Also, I'm not saying that SpaceX or Tesla are a scam, they are clearly companies that have achieved huge milestones and are producing and selling real products. I'm just saying that he massively over-promises and over-hypes his products, far beyond what other CEOs of actual companies do. He does sometimes end up over promising so much that he has run afoul of false advertising laws, or very near - particularly with "full self-driving".

throwawaylinux 4y ago
It is that you don't like it, unless you know exactly what his goal is and are in an authoritative position to say it is impossible. You also are saying they're scams. > Well, I should say for all of these, any other CEO that is not running a scam company. And just about all the rocket and self driving and electric car companies and government organizations I listed massively over promised things. Tesla and Space X aren't the worst of the bunch as far as I can see. How are you measuring these over promises compared with others? I think what this looks like is you just personally hate Musk and are trying to come up with reasons for it that don't sound petty or unreasonable. You don't have to, you're allowed to hate him for whatever reason you like, and you don't have to explain yourself to anybody.
- tsimionescu 4y ago
  > It is that you don't like it, unless you know exactly what his goal is and are in an authoritative position to say it is impossible. He is saying that his goal is to make humanity multi-planetary, so that it can survive a disaster that may happen to the earth. This goal is impossible with anything resembling current technology. This is obvious if you think about it even for a little bit. So it's either a lie, or he hasn't thought about it for more than a little bit. > You also are saying they're scams. No I'm not. I'll repeat it again: SpaceX and Tesla are serious companies producing worthwhile products that people want. They have both broken ground in areas where no company has broken ground for a long long time, and they have generally left older companies in their spaces in the dust. This doesn't mean that Musk doesn't try to present them as even more than they actually are, for purposes that I'm sure are part ego boosting, part clever marketing. He often outright lies while doing so, or promises impossible goals in impossible timelines.
  - throwawaylinux 4y ago
    > He is saying that his goal is to make humanity multi-planetary, so that it can survive a disaster that may happen to the earth. Great, that's a cool goal. Especially with so much concern about existential threats to humanity on earth. > This goal is impossible with anything resembling current technology. This is obvious if you think about it even for a little bit. So it's either a lie, or he hasn't thought about it for more than a little bit. Or he wants to improve on current technology, like he's been doing. > No I'm not. I'll repeat it again: SpaceX and Tesla are serious companies producing worthwhile products that people want. They have both broken ground in areas where no company has broken ground for a long long time, and they have generally left older companies in their spaces in the dust. Okay you backed down on that now, but you did say it before in the part I quoted. > This doesn't mean that Musk doesn't try to present them as even more than they actually are, Like all companies including the many competitors I listed. > for purposes that I'm sure are part ego boosting, part clever marketing. He often outright lies while doing so, or promises impossible goals in impossible timelines. I still think it's that you hate Musk and are fixating on him. When I asked you to explain why it's a scam for example, you couldn't. So just a bit more thinking through things seems to help bring a bit more clarity and perspective. I mean you're asking about other companies and CEOs, I can't understand it you must be willfully looking the other way. The CEO of BP has has branded himself a visionary leader who is fighting climate change, for example. And that kind of bullshit is common among petroleum corporations, that was just the first example I searched for. So, it's just all pretty rich to hear you talking about how other CEOs are great and don't do all these terrible things you imagine Musk does. I mean, there are perfectly good reasons to hate Musk, but when you start trying to say other CEOs are much better by comparison and that's your justification for it, I think that demonstrates it's not very rational in this case.