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A really key difference that I feel gets missed is the "who swung first" aspect. A great deal of what gets called "cancel culture" is people reacting to someon

A really key difference that I feel gets missed is the "who swung first" aspect. A great deal of what gets called "cancel culture" is people reacting to someone behaving in a way that harms others, including but not limited to... - Discrimination (gender, orientation, religion, race, whatever) - Harassment - Threats, ranging from the subtle to the overt - Actual violence Quite often, the targets of this behavior have done nothing beyond exist and be honest about who they are and how they see themselves. Their harassers swung first. To take your porn example (I too am old enough to remember the 90s), the moral majority was swinging first. They were offended by porn, but no one was forcing them to consume it. No one was threatening or harassing them. Maybe the right wing (which is where the moral majority centered as well) should consider why they keep swinging first instead of why sometimes people swing back.

Cyberdog 4y ago
You are pretty much saying "but it's okay when we do it." If doxing and criticizing people for their beliefs and practices is not okay for the right to do, then it's not okay for the left to do either.
- ladyattis 4y ago
  So you're fine if I post your SSN on this site? And let's assume the mods also co-sign that decision in this hypothetical, so you're okay with your PII being out there for anyone (and I mean anyone) to see and use? You wouldn't even try to subpoena Y Combinator for my information on file such as my IP logs and email address (necessary for registration) to serve me notice? I seriously doubt that. I'm sure you would lawyer up rather quickly and probably contact the mods here to have my comment deleted and my account permanently banned. So don't pretend you're some kind of "information wants to be free" maximalist because when it comes down to it, we all want privacy and no one should be using the Internet as a cudgel to gain compliance from anyone when you can just leave well alone. But it seems you're fine with Kiwi Farms literally posting SSNs, bank balances, passwords to accounts, and much more. The contradictions in your mind must border on some kind of Escher print.
  - Cyberdog 4y ago
    I'm not sure how you jumped to that conclusion from my post. If I have reason to believe that you committed a crime by acquiring and posting my SSN and I was victimized by it, I would try to get restitution, sure. I don't see how that's in conflict with what I've previously said, though; if a crime was committed by someone doxing someone else on KF, that person is free to subpoena KF and try to bring the doxer to justice. Go for it. But before you do, you should make sure that a crime was actually committed, and mere criticism, or sharing information you posted yourself, or sharing information which can be found via the 21st-century equivalent of a phone book, is not criminal in the United States. And that's usually what a "dox" is; very rarely does it involve hacking into government databases or something like that.
  - turkeysandwich 4y ago
    > But it seems you're fine with Kiwi Farms literally posting SSNs, bank balances, passwords to accounts, and much more. Small correction, this doesn't happen on Kiwi Farms. Kiwi Farms is focused on discussing much more mundane, public drama. Just interactions between people, mostly on public social media like Twitter, Youtube and others. Things like hacking, private financial information, DDoSing, swatting, are all heavily policed on Kiwi Farms. Additionally, directly interacting with the subject of a thread on Kiwi Farms is also bannable. Their ethos is watching monkeys in the zoo, not going out and poking them themselves. There's actual shady forums out there that do those illegal things, generally hosted in foreign countries or behind Tor.
    - ladyattis 4y ago
      Your correction is incorrect. People have shown forum posts by users posting passwords, bank balances, and SSNs. They called the SSNs 'Minecraft numbers' to try to skirt any moderation attempts, so don't try to sweep this stuff under the rug. Their users are doing this and their mods know it. They only delete such information an attempt to put a fig leaf on the matter. Too little, too late.
      - turkeysandwich 4y ago
- sjsdaiuasgdia 4y ago
  I am saying that if someone is harassing you when you haven't done anything to them, it should be pretty OK to tell others about the harassment and others should be able to say "I'm not going to interact / do business with that jerk." "Beliefs and practices" is, again, leaving aside the "who swung first" aspect. Have all the beliefs and practices you want that don't involve harassing others. If your beliefs are homophobic/transphobic/racist/sexist/etc and you choose to then "practice" those beliefs by harassing people you don't like, you swung first and you shouldn't be surprised if society looks down on you for it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
abigail95 4y ago
anyone caring about who swung first is trying to create an unresolvable problem or a forever war. this is not a solution for untangling disagreement. i've not seen any conflict solved by doing this
- sjsdaiuasgdia 4y ago
  That's great that you think that, but there's this group of jerks that keeps swinging first. At some point you have to start addressing the people who are actively trying to make others' lives worse through harassment, discrimination, and violence.

Cyberdog 4y ago

You are pretty much saying "but it's okay when we do it." If doxing and criticizing people for their beliefs and practices is not okay for the right to do, then it's not okay for the left to do either.

ladyattis 4y ago
So you're fine if I post your SSN on this site? And let's assume the mods also co-sign that decision in this hypothetical, so you're okay with your PII being out there for anyone (and I mean anyone) to see and use? You wouldn't even try to subpoena Y Combinator for my information on file such as my IP logs and email address (necessary for registration) to serve me notice? I seriously doubt that. I'm sure you would lawyer up rather quickly and probably contact the mods here to have my comment deleted and my account permanently banned. So don't pretend you're some kind of "information wants to be free" maximalist because when it comes down to it, we all want privacy and no one should be using the Internet as a cudgel to gain compliance from anyone when you can just leave well alone. But it seems you're fine with Kiwi Farms literally posting SSNs, bank balances, passwords to accounts, and much more. The contradictions in your mind must border on some kind of Escher print.
- Cyberdog 4y ago
  I'm not sure how you jumped to that conclusion from my post. If I have reason to believe that you committed a crime by acquiring and posting my SSN and I was victimized by it, I would try to get restitution, sure. I don't see how that's in conflict with what I've previously said, though; if a crime was committed by someone doxing someone else on KF, that person is free to subpoena KF and try to bring the doxer to justice. Go for it. But before you do, you should make sure that a crime was actually committed, and mere criticism, or sharing information you posted yourself, or sharing information which can be found via the 21st-century equivalent of a phone book, is not criminal in the United States. And that's usually what a "dox" is; very rarely does it involve hacking into government databases or something like that.
- turkeysandwich 4y ago
  > But it seems you're fine with Kiwi Farms literally posting SSNs, bank balances, passwords to accounts, and much more. Small correction, this doesn't happen on Kiwi Farms. Kiwi Farms is focused on discussing much more mundane, public drama. Just interactions between people, mostly on public social media like Twitter, Youtube and others. Things like hacking, private financial information, DDoSing, swatting, are all heavily policed on Kiwi Farms. Additionally, directly interacting with the subject of a thread on Kiwi Farms is also bannable. Their ethos is watching monkeys in the zoo, not going out and poking them themselves. There's actual shady forums out there that do those illegal things, generally hosted in foreign countries or behind Tor.
  - ladyattis 4y ago
    Your correction is incorrect. People have shown forum posts by users posting passwords, bank balances, and SSNs. They called the SSNs 'Minecraft numbers' to try to skirt any moderation attempts, so don't try to sweep this stuff under the rug. Their users are doing this and their mods know it. They only delete such information an attempt to put a fig leaf on the matter. Too little, too late.
    - turkeysandwich 4y ago
sjsdaiuasgdia 4y ago
I am saying that if someone is harassing you when you haven't done anything to them, it should be pretty OK to tell others about the harassment and others should be able to say "I'm not going to interact / do business with that jerk." "Beliefs and practices" is, again, leaving aside the "who swung first" aspect. Have all the beliefs and practices you want that don't involve harassing others. If your beliefs are homophobic/transphobic/racist/sexist/etc and you choose to then "practice" those beliefs by harassing people you don't like, you swung first and you shouldn't be surprised if society looks down on you for it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

abigail95 4y ago

anyone caring about who swung first is trying to create an unresolvable problem or a forever war. this is not a solution for untangling disagreement. i've not seen any conflict solved by doing this

sjsdaiuasgdia 4y ago
That's great that you think that, but there's this group of jerks that keeps swinging first. At some point you have to start addressing the people who are actively trying to make others' lives worse through harassment, discrimination, and violence.