5 ms·

The point here is that Cloudflare's core product, despite being run by a private for-profit company, is as close to an essential service as it gets in the digit

The point here is that Cloudflare's core product, despite being run by a private for-profit company, is as close to an essential service as it gets in the digital world. This is not the same as saying "posting on Twitter is a civil right"

phillipcarter 4y ago
So then the answer is for Cloudflare to restructure their company. If they want to be seen as a utility so desperately, make it so! Not having the legal obligations of a utility, while acting like one (i.e., getting to pull the "neutrality" card in the face of public pressure to drop nazis) is not okay.
- wahnfrieden 4y ago
  Cf themselves are disincentivized to make that change
  - phillipcarter 4y ago
    Yes, exactly. They want all the benefits of being seen as a utility, but none of the obligations of actually being one. That's called being slimy.
    - wahnfrieden 4y ago
      Why not go a step further and call the incentives and the ones who prop them up slimy?
  - robryk 4y ago
    What change would that be? I don't know of anything they could do to make themselves a utility besides behaving like one and publicly starting that they intend to do so.
    - wahnfrieden 4y ago
      yes there is a deeper systemic crux to this symptom and it won’t be solved by a business
      - robryk 4y ago
        I'm sorry, i don't see how this answers my question. What do you mean by "this symptom"?
        wahnfrieden 4y ago
        there’s no serious suggestion that cf reform themselves away from their incentives. their negative behavior is a symptom of a wider structural problem
        robryk 4y ago
        What incentives do you claim they are under? I'm sorry, but you seem to be assuming some context i seem not to have.
        wahnfrieden 4y ago
        just capitalism lol sorry for speaking a little suggestively on a vc forum
        robryk 4y ago
        I really mean my original question. I think what CF is doing is trying to behave like a utility, and i think it's arguably in their best interest[1]. You seem to think that it's very obviously not in their interest. Care to elaborate on why? [1] because their business scales very well, so they'd prefer to be considered reliable, so that competition doesn't have that available as a differentiator; any attempt at applying content-dependent rules either uses lots of heuristic automation or is reactive in response to Twitter storms, neither of which is predictable and reliable
- vorpalhex 4y ago
  As a private company, they can choose how they serve users. Isn't this what gets said everytime Twitter bans someone? Cloudflare is allowed to offer services to people you don't like.
  - phillipcarter 4y ago
    And we're allowed to pressure them to act more ethical.
    - Banana699 4y ago
      Ok, but your pressuring is not working. We're just trying to save you from wasting your time.
      - phillipcarter 4y ago
        You should look at their stock price.
        Banana699 4y ago
        It took a hit because a bunch of random nobodies are raging about them on HN?
  - pvillano 4y ago
    Private companies are allowed to do a lot of immoral things because lobbying prevents the law from accurately reflecting the values of the voting public. Nazis shouldn't get a website, even if the law permits it, and everyone has a moral obligation to fight fascism.
    - vorpalhex 4y ago
      Everyone has a right to speech, even speech that is not good. That applies to gay people at Stonewall and the KKK marching in DC equally. If you would restrict one then you restrict both. The freedom is absolute or it does not exist for anyone except the current favored group. It's like laws on the treatment of prisoners of war - we don't have those rules because we love our enemy, it's because we want our brothers to not be tortured.
tambourine_man 4y ago
>is as close to an essential service as it gets in the digital world Thankfully, that's not true at all. About 16% of all sites use Cloudflare (80% of 20%) “Cloudflare is used by 79.8% of all the websites whose reverse proxy service we know. This is 19.1% of all websites.” https://w3techs.com/technologies/details/cn-cloudflare https://w3techs.com/technologies/details/cn-cloudflare >This is not the same as saying "posting on Twitter is a civil right" It's pretty much the same thing, yes.
- ZGDUwpqEWpUZ 4y ago
  Now do what % of people ever need rescuing by the fire service.
  - pvillano 4y ago
    would you clarify your intent

phillipcarter 4y ago

So then the answer is for Cloudflare to restructure their company. If they want to be seen as a utility so desperately, make it so! Not having the legal obligations of a utility, while acting like one (i.e., getting to pull the "neutrality" card in the face of public pressure to drop nazis) is not okay.

wahnfrieden 4y ago
Cf themselves are disincentivized to make that change
- phillipcarter 4y ago
  Yes, exactly. They want all the benefits of being seen as a utility, but none of the obligations of actually being one. That's called being slimy.
  - wahnfrieden 4y ago
    Why not go a step further and call the incentives and the ones who prop them up slimy?
- robryk 4y ago
  What change would that be? I don't know of anything they could do to make themselves a utility besides behaving like one and publicly starting that they intend to do so.
  - wahnfrieden 4y ago
    yes there is a deeper systemic crux to this symptom and it won’t be solved by a business
    - robryk 4y ago
      I'm sorry, i don't see how this answers my question. What do you mean by "this symptom"?
      - wahnfrieden 4y ago
        there’s no serious suggestion that cf reform themselves away from their incentives. their negative behavior is a symptom of a wider structural problem
        robryk 4y ago
        What incentives do you claim they are under? I'm sorry, but you seem to be assuming some context i seem not to have.
        wahnfrieden 4y ago
        just capitalism lol sorry for speaking a little suggestively on a vc forum
        robryk 4y ago
        I really mean my original question. I think what CF is doing is trying to behave like a utility, and i think it's arguably in their best interest[1]. You seem to think that it's very obviously not in their interest. Care to elaborate on why? [1] because their business scales very well, so they'd prefer to be considered reliable, so that competition doesn't have that available as a differentiator; any attempt at applying content-dependent rules either uses lots of heuristic automation or is reactive in response to Twitter storms, neither of which is predictable and reliable
vorpalhex 4y ago
As a private company, they can choose how they serve users. Isn't this what gets said everytime Twitter bans someone? Cloudflare is allowed to offer services to people you don't like.
- phillipcarter 4y ago
  And we're allowed to pressure them to act more ethical.
  - Banana699 4y ago
    Ok, but your pressuring is not working. We're just trying to save you from wasting your time.
    - phillipcarter 4y ago
      You should look at their stock price.
      - Banana699 4y ago
        It took a hit because a bunch of random nobodies are raging about them on HN?
- pvillano 4y ago
  Private companies are allowed to do a lot of immoral things because lobbying prevents the law from accurately reflecting the values of the voting public. Nazis shouldn't get a website, even if the law permits it, and everyone has a moral obligation to fight fascism.
  - vorpalhex 4y ago
    Everyone has a right to speech, even speech that is not good. That applies to gay people at Stonewall and the KKK marching in DC equally. If you would restrict one then you restrict both. The freedom is absolute or it does not exist for anyone except the current favored group. It's like laws on the treatment of prisoners of war - we don't have those rules because we love our enemy, it's because we want our brothers to not be tortured.

tambourine_man 4y ago

>is as close to an essential service as it gets in the digital world Thankfully, that's not true at all. About 16% of all sites use Cloudflare (80% of 20%) “Cloudflare is used by 79.8% of all the websites whose reverse proxy service we know. This is 19.1% of all websites.” https://w3techs.com/technologies/details/cn-cloudflare https://w3techs.com/technologies/details/cn-cloudflare >This is not the same as saying "posting on Twitter is a civil right" It's pretty much the same thing, yes.

ZGDUwpqEWpUZ 4y ago
Now do what % of people ever need rescuing by the fire service.
- pvillano 4y ago
  would you clarify your intent