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The problem with the government trying to do something is that anyone who's really really qualified will find the paperwork, compliance, and bidding procedures

by gte910h 15y ago

The problem with the government trying to do something is that anyone who's really really qualified will find the paperwork, compliance, and bidding procedures way too complicated for the sums of money involved. The Android app cost 106k btw. So looking at this guys hourly rate, it would take approximately 6 months of 40 hour weeks for him to cost that much to do the app. So if he: Learned out to submit the forms that got him into the bidding Made changes to his company required to make it seem a valid bid target Filed the correct forms to put in his bid Factored in correctly the amount of oversight and travel that would be required to get even a simple app done according to the whims of the people hired to get it made Used server technologies compliant with government desires, including ones he may never really willingly touch with a 10 foot pole Then MAYBE, just MAYBE, he'd be able to go as low as say, 60k or so. And that's for a small indie dev. Now look at a bigger company doing this app (as the government likes support, unlike a single freelancer can necessarily provide), and you easily hit the 106k range. Does it not work well? Sounds like it works like crap. But complicated crap still can be expensive to make.

sumukh1 15y ago
The app itself was outsourced. Someone else did the development, a company that caters to the government put in the work to do the bidding. Money just happened to fall between the crack. BTW I looked at the code, and there's nothing that an average iOS (and probably Android) developer couldn't do in 4-6 hours.
- gte910h 15y ago
  And finding out exactly what they want done, and documenting it could have taken weeks. Also, where is the code?
  - sumukh1 15y ago
    That is true, but in an ideal world, it shouldn't. You can get it from MuckRock or from OSHA's own site. http://www.muckrock.com/foi/view/united-states-of-america/source-code-of-heat-safety-tool/766/ http://www.muckrock.com/foi/view/united-states-of-america/so... They provided it 20 days ago, so no idea why the author mentioned that it wasn't available.
Tichy 15y ago
Maybe they should have created a competition for finished apps instead. If the app is as simple as it sounds (not sure what it actually does), maybe some high school kids would have entered a better version and raked in 5000$ as the first price.
- pavel_lishin 15y ago
  What test would they use to check whether an app is simple or not? At a certain point, you put out a bid for a complicated monstrocity, and the only entrant is some RentACoder who claims he can re-write Windows in Python in two weeks for $50.
  - Tichy 15y ago
    Since the competition would be for finished apps, it wouldn't matter.
    - pavel_lishin 15y ago
      Sure it would. If OSHA wants a new operating system, putting out an open call for a deliverable would be retarded. Absolutely nobody would be able to deliver such a thing on spec, and those that would be willing would be obvious scam artists. At best, it would cost someone a few weeks of time evaluating these bullshit submissions and realizing that they're a waste of time. At worst, they would be accepted, another $100k would be paid out, and we'd be worse off than when we began.
      - Tichy 15y ago
        We were talking about some temperature app, not a new operating system. I did not suggest such a competition would be a good idea for every kind of project. It's true that there would be overhead for running the competition and judging the entries, too.
        pavel_lishin 15y ago
AJ007 15y ago
If someone is interested in how the government procurement process is gamed, "The Stoner Arms Dealers: How Two American Kids Became Big-Time Weapons Traders" in Rolling Stone is a good read - http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-stoner-arms-dealers-20110316 http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-stoner-arms-de... It sounded to me like the whole business was getting the contract written correctly. Once the contract was procured, fulfillment it was more of an after thought.
- enoptix 15y ago
  I hadn't seen that article before. It was a great read. Thanks for sharing.
- gte910h 15y ago
  That is not accurate in my experience. Their contracts were even mentioned to be in the piece to be for foreigners, so no one cared, etc. Sponsers care a hell of a lot that things do the right things when it's important.
buff-a 15y ago
You seem to be arguing this as if this is reality. What you are stating is the justification. Its the theater. The story. The reality is that there are two ways to get people to give you money. 1. Make something people want. 2. Bribe people in government to give you enough money to cover cost of said bribe, plus handsome profit, plus possibly actually making something, and then have the government force those people to pay through taxes. I dare say that what you describe may even have been the original idea, but the facts of (2) are unarguable. Sometimes (for really big ticket items) the government official has to wait until they leave government to get the paycheck, but claim it they do.
- gte910h 15y ago
  I am stating what government contracting is like. I don't quite get the psudolibertarian point of your post, but I know personally that as I worked for a Georgia state agency doing federal contracting, nothing even CLOSE to a bribe was used anywhere. We couldn't even buy them lunch. If you jump through a series of hoops and bid low enough, you WILL get government contracts. They're just expensive hoops.

by gte910h 15y ago

sumukh1 15y ago

The app itself was outsourced. Someone else did the development, a company that caters to the government put in the work to do the bidding. Money just happened to fall between the crack. BTW I looked at the code, and there's nothing that an average iOS (and probably Android) developer couldn't do in 4-6 hours.

gte910h 15y ago
And finding out exactly what they want done, and documenting it could have taken weeks. Also, where is the code?
- sumukh1 15y ago
  That is true, but in an ideal world, it shouldn't. You can get it from MuckRock or from OSHA's own site. http://www.muckrock.com/foi/view/united-states-of-america/source-code-of-heat-safety-tool/766/ http://www.muckrock.com/foi/view/united-states-of-america/so... They provided it 20 days ago, so no idea why the author mentioned that it wasn't available.

Tichy 15y ago

Maybe they should have created a competition for finished apps instead. If the app is as simple as it sounds (not sure what it actually does), maybe some high school kids would have entered a better version and raked in 5000$ as the first price.

pavel_lishin 15y ago
What test would they use to check whether an app is simple or not? At a certain point, you put out a bid for a complicated monstrocity, and the only entrant is some RentACoder who claims he can re-write Windows in Python in two weeks for $50.
- Tichy 15y ago
  Since the competition would be for finished apps, it wouldn't matter.
  - pavel_lishin 15y ago
    Sure it would. If OSHA wants a new operating system, putting out an open call for a deliverable would be retarded. Absolutely nobody would be able to deliver such a thing on spec, and those that would be willing would be obvious scam artists. At best, it would cost someone a few weeks of time evaluating these bullshit submissions and realizing that they're a waste of time. At worst, they would be accepted, another $100k would be paid out, and we'd be worse off than when we began.
    - Tichy 15y ago
      We were talking about some temperature app, not a new operating system. I did not suggest such a competition would be a good idea for every kind of project. It's true that there would be overhead for running the competition and judging the entries, too.
      - pavel_lishin 15y ago

AJ007 15y ago

If someone is interested in how the government procurement process is gamed, "The Stoner Arms Dealers: How Two American Kids Became Big-Time Weapons Traders" in Rolling Stone is a good read - http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-stoner-arms-dealers-20110316 http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-stoner-arms-de... It sounded to me like the whole business was getting the contract written correctly. Once the contract was procured, fulfillment it was more of an after thought.

enoptix 15y ago
I hadn't seen that article before. It was a great read. Thanks for sharing.
gte910h 15y ago
That is not accurate in my experience. Their contracts were even mentioned to be in the piece to be for foreigners, so no one cared, etc. Sponsers care a hell of a lot that things do the right things when it's important.

buff-a 15y ago

You seem to be arguing this as if this is reality. What you are stating is the justification. Its the theater. The story. The reality is that there are two ways to get people to give you money. 1. Make something people want. 2. Bribe people in government to give you enough money to cover cost of said bribe, plus handsome profit, plus possibly actually making something, and then have the government force those people to pay through taxes. I dare say that what you describe may even have been the original idea, but the facts of (2) are unarguable. Sometimes (for really big ticket items) the government official has to wait until they leave government to get the paycheck, but claim it they do.

gte910h 15y ago
I am stating what government contracting is like. I don't quite get the psudolibertarian point of your post, but I know personally that as I worked for a Georgia state agency doing federal contracting, nothing even CLOSE to a bribe was used anywhere. We couldn't even buy them lunch. If you jump through a series of hoops and bid low enough, you WILL get government contracts. They're just expensive hoops.