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I mean, given that most signs point to the culprit site there being kiwifarms, yes, yes! More generally, swatting people is bad (and also illegal!), people sho

I mean, given that most signs point to the culprit site there being kiwifarms, yes, yes! More generally, swatting people is bad (and also illegal!), people should not do it. Sites that encourage it should not be supported. No equivocation there.

Natsu 4y ago
> I mean, given that most signs point to the culprit site there being kiwifarms, yes, yes! So, when someone does a thing that's designed to hurt both Kiwifarms and MTG and your assumption is that KF is responsible? > More generally, swatting people is bad (and also illegal!), people should not do it. I'd agree, anyone caught doing this should be imprisoned for attempted murder. I worry more about people trying to expand this list to anyone adjacent to them or critical of that person who does not engage in such harassment or any platform they use to speak, even when that platform removes anyone doing such things. That said if we do go down that road, FB, Twitter & co. should be first on the chopping block and I won't miss them. > Sites that encourage it should not be supported. I don't visit KF, except that I read their response earlier regarding the byuu thing (when they were being DDoS'd which prevented them from responding much) and it didn't seem like the platform had meaningfully encouraged this or interacted with byuu in any way. It's a sad loss, because I was loosely acquainted with byuu and byuu's work and you can see some of those comments between us here on HN. I also did what little I could to try to help find that package of lost video games, not that I actually was able to contribute anything, but I tried. Despite KF getting lots of blame, I didn't actually see any proof of them participating in that in any meaningful way. Maybe I missed something, because again, I don't actually use that site and I only went there to look at what was going on with the story since it involved byuu. But the response was pretty clear that there was a small thread with people not even interacting with byuu and it's hard to see a link between that and driving someone to suicide. None of the articles I read about the whole thing actually did anything but quote someone who said there was a link, so with no evidence but some person I don't know's say-so, I'd say that case is rather weak by people who already hate KF. Feel free to point to more showing that KF is bad, because to me they're just another angry part of the internet, kinda like FB or Twitter, that I tend to avoid for that very reason. I'm suspect that they in particular should be deplatformed compared to the other platforms, though, because to me they're all angry nasty things that have driven people to suicide. And I'm pretty sure that on FB in particular, someone was successfully sued for that, which already puts them a level worse than what I've seen proven of KF so far.
- joshuamorton 4y ago
  >So, when someone does a thing that's designed to hurt both Kiwifarms and MTG and your assumption is that KF is responsible? When kf doxxes someone, and she's swatted the next day, yeah I'll blame the site that posted her address the day before and is known for inciting swatting attacks. > That said if we do go down that road, FB, Twitter & co. should be first on the chopping block and I won't miss them. I don't follow, KF doesn't remove, and even tacitly (and not so tacitly) encourages, harassment, while that isn't true of FB or twitter or even reddit.
  - Natsu 4y ago
    Does KF refer to the posters on the site, or the site itself? When you say "KF doxxes" I assume you mean the posters, but it's not clear and in that case they would generally have no liability from 3rd party posters. > I don't follow, KF doesn't remove, and even tacitly (and not so tacitly) encourages, harassment, while that isn't true of FB or twitter or even reddit. If "harassment" is the legal type (i.e. true threats), that's not first amendment protected and those who post it can be charged criminally. That's not generally something the platform is liable for. That said, FB and others have been sued in similar circumstances: https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/2022/04/12/mother-sues-facebook-instagram-snapchat-over-teen-sons-suicide/7290858001/ https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/2022/04/12/mother-sues-f...
    - joshuamorton 4y ago
      I'm not sure what your point is. I've never made any claim about legal liability. I said that sites that support/encourage/facilitate the things that KF (as a site) does should not be supported. We are under no obligation to define morality based on legality. Like, your defense here seems to amount to "what they're doing isn't technically illegal", which, sure, but that's not a defense to most people.
      - Natsu 4y ago
        Well, the answer to "it's not illegal" is to change the law to define what should be illegal to make it match up with morality better. I conjecture that most such changes would possibly take down FB & Twitter, but I've already said that I don't really think that would be a net loss.

Natsu 4y ago

> I mean, given that most signs point to the culprit site there being kiwifarms, yes, yes! So, when someone does a thing that's designed to hurt both Kiwifarms and MTG and your assumption is that KF is responsible? > More generally, swatting people is bad (and also illegal!), people should not do it. I'd agree, anyone caught doing this should be imprisoned for attempted murder. I worry more about people trying to expand this list to anyone adjacent to them or critical of that person who does not engage in such harassment or any platform they use to speak, even when that platform removes anyone doing such things. That said if we do go down that road, FB, Twitter & co. should be first on the chopping block and I won't miss them. > Sites that encourage it should not be supported. I don't visit KF, except that I read their response earlier regarding the byuu thing (when they were being DDoS'd which prevented them from responding much) and it didn't seem like the platform had meaningfully encouraged this or interacted with byuu in any way. It's a sad loss, because I was loosely acquainted with byuu and byuu's work and you can see some of those comments between us here on HN. I also did what little I could to try to help find that package of lost video games, not that I actually was able to contribute anything, but I tried. Despite KF getting lots of blame, I didn't actually see any proof of them participating in that in any meaningful way. Maybe I missed something, because again, I don't actually use that site and I only went there to look at what was going on with the story since it involved byuu. But the response was pretty clear that there was a small thread with people not even interacting with byuu and it's hard to see a link between that and driving someone to suicide. None of the articles I read about the whole thing actually did anything but quote someone who said there was a link, so with no evidence but some person I don't know's say-so, I'd say that case is rather weak by people who already hate KF. Feel free to point to more showing that KF is bad, because to me they're just another angry part of the internet, kinda like FB or Twitter, that I tend to avoid for that very reason. I'm suspect that they in particular should be deplatformed compared to the other platforms, though, because to me they're all angry nasty things that have driven people to suicide. And I'm pretty sure that on FB in particular, someone was successfully sued for that, which already puts them a level worse than what I've seen proven of KF so far.

joshuamorton 4y ago
>So, when someone does a thing that's designed to hurt both Kiwifarms and MTG and your assumption is that KF is responsible? When kf doxxes someone, and she's swatted the next day, yeah I'll blame the site that posted her address the day before and is known for inciting swatting attacks. > That said if we do go down that road, FB, Twitter & co. should be first on the chopping block and I won't miss them. I don't follow, KF doesn't remove, and even tacitly (and not so tacitly) encourages, harassment, while that isn't true of FB or twitter or even reddit.
- Natsu 4y ago
  Does KF refer to the posters on the site, or the site itself? When you say "KF doxxes" I assume you mean the posters, but it's not clear and in that case they would generally have no liability from 3rd party posters. > I don't follow, KF doesn't remove, and even tacitly (and not so tacitly) encourages, harassment, while that isn't true of FB or twitter or even reddit. If "harassment" is the legal type (i.e. true threats), that's not first amendment protected and those who post it can be charged criminally. That's not generally something the platform is liable for. That said, FB and others have been sued in similar circumstances: https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/2022/04/12/mother-sues-facebook-instagram-snapchat-over-teen-sons-suicide/7290858001/ https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/2022/04/12/mother-sues-f...
  - joshuamorton 4y ago
    I'm not sure what your point is. I've never made any claim about legal liability. I said that sites that support/encourage/facilitate the things that KF (as a site) does should not be supported. We are under no obligation to define morality based on legality. Like, your defense here seems to amount to "what they're doing isn't technically illegal", which, sure, but that's not a defense to most people.
    - Natsu 4y ago
      Well, the answer to "it's not illegal" is to change the law to define what should be illegal to make it match up with morality better. I conjecture that most such changes would possibly take down FB & Twitter, but I've already said that I don't really think that would be a net loss.