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I think the panopticon is unavoidable (I'll expand below) so the question is how to harness it to get a humane techno-totalitarian system? People have pointed

I think the panopticon is unavoidable (I'll expand below) so the question is how to harness it to get a humane techno-totalitarian system? People have pointed out that "humane totalitarian" is an oxymoron, and I agree, but I think it's the challenge we face. It seems to me that we can and should ensure that the people in power are themselves subject to the panopticon. Literally politicians should be 24/7 live streaming their lives. (This is in the context where we are all live-streaming 24/7 whether we want to or not, which is pretty much the case today at least in high-tech nations.) Police badges should be integrated with cameras, the badge IS the camera, the camera IS the badge, and if the camera is off the officer is off-duty. Thoughts? - - - - I think the panopticon is unavoidable due to technological and economic considerations. The technology is only getting smaller, cheaper, lower-power, etc. and it's already ubiquitous. (See "sensing for WiFi if you really want to freak out!) Our phones already monitor and report our location in near realtime. Smart cars and traffic systems are a de facto surveillance system even for people who don't carry phones. The economic benefits are inarguable, and only going to get better. And really, if you could trade your privacy for an end to almost all crime, isn't that worth it? Considering that you wouldn't be alone, that everyone else's privacy is gone too, it's not so bad?

robertlagrant 4y ago
None of that requires identification.
ArboriaInstitut 4y ago
> It seems to me that we can and should ensure that the people in power are themselves subject to the panopticon. Literally politicians should be 24/7 live streaming their lives. This all sounds equally as feasible as simply rolling back the surveillance in the first place. The whole point of these systems is to subject the hoi polloi to constant and intrusive surveillance as a counterinsurgency tactic. Why in the world would they agree to do that to themselves as well?
- carapace 4y ago
  I'm saying that the economics will drive adoption regardless of political structures. The folks in power will be surveilled too, whether they like it or not (if nothing else they have to surveil each other!) The more power you have, the more people study you. The "constant and intrusive surveillance as a counterinsurgency tactic" is a side-effect. And frankly, we should be so lucky that it works (when it works.) I personally think the time for deciding things by violence-- any violence --has passed. In re: political power, we'll see how it plays out in different systems. In China the question is, Will CCP members be subject to the Social Credit System? In democracies we should be able to reshape our systems to take advantage of modern technology to make boring, functioning governing bodies that "just work", but we have to get from here to there.
sillystuff 4y ago
Police are, in theory, already subject to the same physical tracking by automatic license plate readers as the rest of the population. But, police are able to get a pass from other cops when they employ counter-measures to defeat the tracking, so the reality is that the tracking does not apply to them. E.g., cops foiling automatic license plate readers[1] using methods that would cause non-police to be ticketed. And, if somehow you manage to prevent abuse like the above, laws will be passed that grant exceptions for the powerful and their enforcers[2][3]. Many of the existing laws in this category recognize that privacy is essential for personal security and safety-- but only grant that security and safety to the privileged few. We need to enshrine a strong right to privacy in law-- attacking surveillance head on (in the US, this means a constitutional amendment, or it will be [more] vulnerable to laws/courts granting exceptions). While sympathetic, I don't think that trying to reign in surveillance through making it equitable (on paper), are going to succeed. [1] https://www.insideedition.com/21559-investigation-finds-police-personnel-covering-their-license-plates-are-they-trying-to-avoid-paying-tolls https://www.insideedition.com/21559-investigation-finds-poli... [2] https://www.ocregister.com/2009/11/12/special-license-plates-shield-officials-from-traffic-tickets/ https://www.ocregister.com/2009/11/12/special-license-plates... [3] https://www.menendez.senate.gov/newsroom/press/menendez-booker-sherrill-unveil-bipartisan-bill-to-protect-privacy-safety-of-federal-judges-and-their-families https://www.menendez.senate.gov/newsroom/press/menendez-book...

robertlagrant 4y ago

None of that requires identification.

ArboriaInstitut 4y ago

> It seems to me that we can and should ensure that the people in power are themselves subject to the panopticon. Literally politicians should be 24/7 live streaming their lives. This all sounds equally as feasible as simply rolling back the surveillance in the first place. The whole point of these systems is to subject the hoi polloi to constant and intrusive surveillance as a counterinsurgency tactic. Why in the world would they agree to do that to themselves as well?

carapace 4y ago
I'm saying that the economics will drive adoption regardless of political structures. The folks in power will be surveilled too, whether they like it or not (if nothing else they have to surveil each other!) The more power you have, the more people study you. The "constant and intrusive surveillance as a counterinsurgency tactic" is a side-effect. And frankly, we should be so lucky that it works (when it works.) I personally think the time for deciding things by violence-- any violence --has passed. In re: political power, we'll see how it plays out in different systems. In China the question is, Will CCP members be subject to the Social Credit System? In democracies we should be able to reshape our systems to take advantage of modern technology to make boring, functioning governing bodies that "just work", but we have to get from here to there.

sillystuff 4y ago

Police are, in theory, already subject to the same physical tracking by automatic license plate readers as the rest of the population. But, police are able to get a pass from other cops when they employ counter-measures to defeat the tracking, so the reality is that the tracking does not apply to them. E.g., cops foiling automatic license plate readers[1] using methods that would cause non-police to be ticketed. And, if somehow you manage to prevent abuse like the above, laws will be passed that grant exceptions for the powerful and their enforcers[2][3]. Many of the existing laws in this category recognize that privacy is essential for personal security and safety-- but only grant that security and safety to the privileged few. We need to enshrine a strong right to privacy in law-- attacking surveillance head on (in the US, this means a constitutional amendment, or it will be [more] vulnerable to laws/courts granting exceptions). While sympathetic, I don't think that trying to reign in surveillance through making it equitable (on paper), are going to succeed. [1] https://www.insideedition.com/21559-investigation-finds-police-personnel-covering-their-license-plates-are-they-trying-to-avoid-paying-tolls https://www.insideedition.com/21559-investigation-finds-poli... [2] https://www.ocregister.com/2009/11/12/special-license-plates-shield-officials-from-traffic-tickets/ https://www.ocregister.com/2009/11/12/special-license-plates... [3] https://www.menendez.senate.gov/newsroom/press/menendez-booker-sherrill-unveil-bipartisan-bill-to-protect-privacy-safety-of-federal-judges-and-their-families https://www.menendez.senate.gov/newsroom/press/menendez-book...