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Its an interesting moral issue for sure. Should there be any limitations on this kind of hazing for jobs that, by definition, require extreme mental and physic

Its an interesting moral issue for sure. Should there be any limitations on this kind of hazing for jobs that, by definition, require extreme mental and physical fortitude, if the applicants know the risks up front? If we legislate away the Navy's ability to filter applicants in this way, what kind of effects will it have on the quality of the SEALs over time? If we legislate away the Navy's ability to filter applicants in this way, are they going to me more at risk of death later, on the job? Accidental death certainly elicits an emotional reaction, in the media and in the general population. Is that emotional reaction the appropriate guide to properly build and maintain the institutions we rely on? In the case of performance enhancing drugs, it certainly seems like their use should be curtailed.

Cpoll 4y ago
> [legislate away filtering] applicants in this way, what kind of effects will it have on the quality I think that's begging the question, in a way. There are probably ways to modify the "hazing" to be equally effective but less hazardous. In my mind, the physical demands are just a means of testing mental fortitude; once you've selected ideal (and physically healthy) candidates, improving their physical conditioning is relatively trivial. If anything, adding additional monitoring, supervision, and drug testing should be in line with the stated goals of Hell Week.
- ukoki 4y ago
  Isn't the point of the danger and recklessness of hazing to build a team bond and sense of camraderie through a shared experience? Would an equally grueling experience that is missing real danger build as strong a bond?
  - Cpoll 4y ago
    Possibly. My recollection is that the foundation of SEAL training was by Draper Kauffman, based on bonding he saw between French volunteer combatants in WWII, and their "no man left behind" attitudes. In this sense, the link between danger and team bonding is pretty obvious. However, a lot of the more famous parts of SEAL training are more about shared hardship and the need for teamwork than actual risk of life (see: Log PT). Admittedly, this aspect gets a lot more press because it's popular in corporate management circles (building high-performing teams, etc.). I'm not sure if there's been much research one way or another. Either way, I doubt creating fail-safes for some causes of SEAL training deaths will diminish the perception of danger (drug abuse, drowning while under supervision from trainers).
runjake 4y ago
> it certainly seems like their use should be curtailed. Or at least closely monitored by qualified medical professionals. You might be surprised to learn that amphetamines, steroids, and other performance enhancing drugs are issue to military personnel in specific cases, but they are done so under medical supervision. However, in the case of this article, Viagra use is not authorized nor properly monitored.
- rogerkirkness 4y ago
  Yes it seems like the path of 'medically supervised biological optimization' is underutilized here. Clearly more ethical than 'secretly and unevenly distributed self managed biohacking'

Cpoll 4y ago

> [legislate away filtering] applicants in this way, what kind of effects will it have on the quality I think that's begging the question, in a way. There are probably ways to modify the "hazing" to be equally effective but less hazardous. In my mind, the physical demands are just a means of testing mental fortitude; once you've selected ideal (and physically healthy) candidates, improving their physical conditioning is relatively trivial. If anything, adding additional monitoring, supervision, and drug testing should be in line with the stated goals of Hell Week.

ukoki 4y ago
Isn't the point of the danger and recklessness of hazing to build a team bond and sense of camraderie through a shared experience? Would an equally grueling experience that is missing real danger build as strong a bond?
- Cpoll 4y ago
  Possibly. My recollection is that the foundation of SEAL training was by Draper Kauffman, based on bonding he saw between French volunteer combatants in WWII, and their "no man left behind" attitudes. In this sense, the link between danger and team bonding is pretty obvious. However, a lot of the more famous parts of SEAL training are more about shared hardship and the need for teamwork than actual risk of life (see: Log PT). Admittedly, this aspect gets a lot more press because it's popular in corporate management circles (building high-performing teams, etc.). I'm not sure if there's been much research one way or another. Either way, I doubt creating fail-safes for some causes of SEAL training deaths will diminish the perception of danger (drug abuse, drowning while under supervision from trainers).

runjake 4y ago

> it certainly seems like their use should be curtailed. Or at least closely monitored by qualified medical professionals. You might be surprised to learn that amphetamines, steroids, and other performance enhancing drugs are issue to military personnel in specific cases, but they are done so under medical supervision. However, in the case of this article, Viagra use is not authorized nor properly monitored.

rogerkirkness 4y ago
Yes it seems like the path of 'medically supervised biological optimization' is underutilized here. Clearly more ethical than 'secretly and unevenly distributed self managed biohacking'