5 ms·

The group they're trying to target here is a terrorist group. Not even in a metaphorical sense. It's people who try to harass random transgender people to the p

by chc 4y ago

The group they're trying to target here is a terrorist group. Not even in a metaphorical sense. It's people who try to harass random transgender people to the point of suicide or murder.

3sGPqEu59EGDFUn 4y ago
If they are a terrorist group (or otherwise doing something "wrong"), then the appropriate means to deal with that is courts and law enforcement, not a CDN.
- chc 4y ago
  I agree, I wish we had a law enforcement apparatus that cared about protecting transgender people. But we don't have a clear path to that at the moment, and in the meantime we want to avoid more people being killed. Thus you have people trying to argue for more informal procedures that revolve around social pressure, telling companies basically "This is obviously way beyond the pale, you should not associate yourself with this." It's not a good state for things to be in, but pretending things are better than they are is an even worse solution.
  - throwrqX 4y ago
    What evidence is there for the law enforcement apparatus not protecting transgender people in this particular case? Have their been similar cases for cisgender people where the law enforcement apparatus has cared more? I am not sure saying we need mob action to stop other mob action is a good long term solution.
    - FrecklySunbeam 4y ago
      Law enforcement is the tool being used to do the violence ffs, they’re not protecting anyone
      - inquirerGeneral 4y ago
        Yeah make up your facts better.
        FrecklySunbeam 4y ago
        so wacky so made up https://kotaku.com/keffals-clara-sorrenti-twitch-streamer-trans-doxxing-1849434714 https://kotaku.com/keffals-clara-sorrenti-twitch-streamer-tr...
      - throwrqX 4y ago
        Law enforcement are doing the right thing responding to potentially emergency situations. The problem isn't that they are responding to SWATing, the problem is people calling them in when there is no emergency.
    - chc 4y ago
      I can't think of any instances of people being persecuted for being cisgender. But I suppose you can draw a reasonable comparison to The Pirate Bay, which has received much more attention from law enforcement for cutting into record labels' profits than Kiwi Farms has for terrorizing queer people.
      - throwrqX 4y ago
        Things involving industry and large sums of money have always gotten police attention easier. What is in question here is regarding discrimination against transgender individuals compared to cisgender ones with regards to harassment.
    - wahnfrieden 4y ago
      https://www.vox.com/identities/2020/6/23/21295432/police-black-trans-people-violence https://www.vox.com/identities/2020/6/23/21295432/police-bla... https://incite-national.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/TOOLKIT-FINAL.pdf https://incite-national.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/TOOLK... etc
      - throwrqX 4y ago
        Key words in my post were in this particular case. Neither links talk about any similar cases regarding cisgender people and harassment either.
        wahnfrieden 4y ago
        k
    - amrocha 4y ago
      Jesus Christ dude, there's people dying here and you're arguing over technicalities. The site is still up!! No one's been arrested! You'd rather people keep dying while you argue that both sides are bad, while one side is killing people?
      - throwrqX 4y ago
        No, I'd rather people report things to the proper law enforcement authorities if they believe there is criminal activity going on instead of trying to pressure CloudFlare into taking down websites for their moral or political beliefs. They have already resisted pressure from Ukraine regarding Russia which no offense is a directly killing far more people than Kiwifarms ever indirectly will.
- f38zf5vdt 4y ago
  IANAL. KF appears to me to be woefully in violation of US Federal law since it is a forum more or less dedicated to cyberstalking. > The federal law concerning cyberstalking is 18 U.S.C. § 2261A(2). It provides that it’s unlawful for any person to engage in a course of conduct through electronic communication that makes another individual reasonably fear death or serious bodily harm to themselves or another (including a pet or service animal). The behavior may also be illegal if it causes or could cause “substantial emotional distress.” A course of conduct means two or more acts suggesting that the individual has or will continue the behavior. https://www.duimiamilawyer.com/blog/2020/12/is-there-a-federal-law-against-cyberstalking/ https://www.duimiamilawyer.com/blog/2020/12/is-there-a-feder... The decision of investigators to turn a blind eye to it over the past decade is curious.
- rvz 4y ago
  They're right you know, report them to the authorities. Not to an entity like Cloudflare.
- aeturnum 4y ago
  No one is claiming that, in a perfect world, this would be Cloudflare's problem. Some other authority would step in and take care of it I suppose. But we don't live in a perfect world. It's a pretty weak response to say "this should not be their problem" - because, for a bunch of reasons, it is their problem. There are bigger, harder questions along the lines of "how do we as a society deal with this kind of issue." Cloudflare does not need to solve the general case before it deal with the specific actions of this specific website - and the desire to solve the general case is not a defense against confronting the specifics.
- banannaise 4y ago
  This assumes that law enforcement is both effective and fair. It is neither. "Police exist, therefore nobody except the police is allowed to do anything about anyone's bad behavior" is a terrible argument.
  - paganel 4y ago
    It is the best argument we can have in a liberal regime. Anything else would lead us directly to tyranny, and not the metaphorical one.
    - amrocha 4y ago
      Spoken like someone who has never had to distrust police in their life
  - autoexec 4y ago
    Our justice system is far from perfect, but it's better to have due process and transparency than to have corporations or mobs selectively enforcing "the law" however and whenever they see fit. There's no reason to think that just because police exist people can't do anything about other people's bad behavior though. For example, when someone says something you don't like you aren't allowed to silence them because that violates their rights, but you are allowed to use your own rights to speak out against them and what they've been saying. Crimes should be dealt with by our legal systems, but there are plenty of other ways to deal with things that simply offend us.
- wahnfrieden 4y ago
  pigs and domestic terrorists are the same group https://knock-la.com/tradition-of-violence-lasd-gang-history/ https://knock-la.com/tradition-of-violence-lasd-gang-history... and they collude secretly with corporations to advance their powers mutually https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2021/06/emails-show-amazon-rings-hold-lapd-through-camera-giveaways https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2021/06/emails-show-amazon-rin... I don’t ask someone to shoot their own foot to protect myself
mmmpop 4y ago
- chc 4y ago
  That was not my definition. Kiwi Farms will post their target's private info, the private info of everyone their target knows, send death threats to their target and their family, report false crimes to try and get SWAT teams to kill their target, etc. Ben Shapiro doesn't seem like a good person and I suspect he is probably sympathetic to many terrorists, but he is not himself a terrorist as far as I know.
  - whalecancer 4y ago
  - tlonny 4y ago
    What's your source on the SWAT-ing + death threats originating from Kiwi Farms? My understanding of that website is that it is moderated based on the philosophy of "look, don't touch". Your statement runs contrary to this...
    - chc 4y ago
      They are the top suspects in the swatting of the Twitch streamer Keffals and Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene just in the past month. There have been many news articles about it — I would suggest Googling and picking the source that seems most credible to you, since I've found linking specific sources tends to lead to people debating the source itself. (I'll be honest, I'm skeptical on the MTG one, but they are still the top suspects there.)
      - tlonny 4y ago
        I think expunging a website from the internet for "suspected" involvement in crime is a huge overreach. I think such a posture would encourage some to commit "false flag" SWAT-ing as a means to silence those they disagree with. SWAT-ing is a very serious crime, and if they are "top suspects" as you claim, I expect LE would be robustly investigating them. Thoughts?
whalecancer 4y ago
paganel 4y ago
Is Homeland Security actively following and prosecuting that group you mentioned? I mean, on account of them being allegedly "terrorists".
cfvsdfasdfasd 4y ago
Longlius 4y ago
KF's policy is very straightforward - do not engage with the people involved. Doing so or conspiring to do so is grounds for an immediate sitewide permaban.

by chc 4y ago

The group they're trying to target here is a terrorist group. Not even in a metaphorical sense. It's people who try to harass random transgender people to the point of suicide or murder.

3sGPqEu59EGDFUn 4y ago

If they are a terrorist group (or otherwise doing something "wrong"), then the appropriate means to deal with that is courts and law enforcement, not a CDN.

chc 4y ago
I agree, I wish we had a law enforcement apparatus that cared about protecting transgender people. But we don't have a clear path to that at the moment, and in the meantime we want to avoid more people being killed. Thus you have people trying to argue for more informal procedures that revolve around social pressure, telling companies basically "This is obviously way beyond the pale, you should not associate yourself with this." It's not a good state for things to be in, but pretending things are better than they are is an even worse solution.
- throwrqX 4y ago
  What evidence is there for the law enforcement apparatus not protecting transgender people in this particular case? Have their been similar cases for cisgender people where the law enforcement apparatus has cared more? I am not sure saying we need mob action to stop other mob action is a good long term solution.
  - FrecklySunbeam 4y ago
    Law enforcement is the tool being used to do the violence ffs, they’re not protecting anyone
    - inquirerGeneral 4y ago
      Yeah make up your facts better.
      - FrecklySunbeam 4y ago
        so wacky so made up https://kotaku.com/keffals-clara-sorrenti-twitch-streamer-trans-doxxing-1849434714 https://kotaku.com/keffals-clara-sorrenti-twitch-streamer-tr...
    - throwrqX 4y ago
      Law enforcement are doing the right thing responding to potentially emergency situations. The problem isn't that they are responding to SWATing, the problem is people calling them in when there is no emergency.
  - chc 4y ago
    I can't think of any instances of people being persecuted for being cisgender. But I suppose you can draw a reasonable comparison to The Pirate Bay, which has received much more attention from law enforcement for cutting into record labels' profits than Kiwi Farms has for terrorizing queer people.
    - throwrqX 4y ago
      Things involving industry and large sums of money have always gotten police attention easier. What is in question here is regarding discrimination against transgender individuals compared to cisgender ones with regards to harassment.
  - wahnfrieden 4y ago
    https://www.vox.com/identities/2020/6/23/21295432/police-black-trans-people-violence https://www.vox.com/identities/2020/6/23/21295432/police-bla... https://incite-national.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/TOOLKIT-FINAL.pdf https://incite-national.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/TOOLK... etc
    - throwrqX 4y ago
      Key words in my post were in this particular case. Neither links talk about any similar cases regarding cisgender people and harassment either.
      - wahnfrieden 4y ago
        k
  - amrocha 4y ago
    Jesus Christ dude, there's people dying here and you're arguing over technicalities. The site is still up!! No one's been arrested! You'd rather people keep dying while you argue that both sides are bad, while one side is killing people?
    - throwrqX 4y ago
      No, I'd rather people report things to the proper law enforcement authorities if they believe there is criminal activity going on instead of trying to pressure CloudFlare into taking down websites for their moral or political beliefs. They have already resisted pressure from Ukraine regarding Russia which no offense is a directly killing far more people than Kiwifarms ever indirectly will.
f38zf5vdt 4y ago
IANAL. KF appears to me to be woefully in violation of US Federal law since it is a forum more or less dedicated to cyberstalking. > The federal law concerning cyberstalking is 18 U.S.C. § 2261A(2). It provides that it’s unlawful for any person to engage in a course of conduct through electronic communication that makes another individual reasonably fear death or serious bodily harm to themselves or another (including a pet or service animal). The behavior may also be illegal if it causes or could cause “substantial emotional distress.” A course of conduct means two or more acts suggesting that the individual has or will continue the behavior. https://www.duimiamilawyer.com/blog/2020/12/is-there-a-federal-law-against-cyberstalking/ https://www.duimiamilawyer.com/blog/2020/12/is-there-a-feder... The decision of investigators to turn a blind eye to it over the past decade is curious.
rvz 4y ago
They're right you know, report them to the authorities. Not to an entity like Cloudflare.
aeturnum 4y ago
No one is claiming that, in a perfect world, this would be Cloudflare's problem. Some other authority would step in and take care of it I suppose. But we don't live in a perfect world. It's a pretty weak response to say "this should not be their problem" - because, for a bunch of reasons, it is their problem. There are bigger, harder questions along the lines of "how do we as a society deal with this kind of issue." Cloudflare does not need to solve the general case before it deal with the specific actions of this specific website - and the desire to solve the general case is not a defense against confronting the specifics.
banannaise 4y ago
This assumes that law enforcement is both effective and fair. It is neither. "Police exist, therefore nobody except the police is allowed to do anything about anyone's bad behavior" is a terrible argument.
- paganel 4y ago
  It is the best argument we can have in a liberal regime. Anything else would lead us directly to tyranny, and not the metaphorical one.
  - amrocha 4y ago
    Spoken like someone who has never had to distrust police in their life
- autoexec 4y ago
  Our justice system is far from perfect, but it's better to have due process and transparency than to have corporations or mobs selectively enforcing "the law" however and whenever they see fit. There's no reason to think that just because police exist people can't do anything about other people's bad behavior though. For example, when someone says something you don't like you aren't allowed to silence them because that violates their rights, but you are allowed to use your own rights to speak out against them and what they've been saying. Crimes should be dealt with by our legal systems, but there are plenty of other ways to deal with things that simply offend us.
wahnfrieden 4y ago
pigs and domestic terrorists are the same group https://knock-la.com/tradition-of-violence-lasd-gang-history/ https://knock-la.com/tradition-of-violence-lasd-gang-history... and they collude secretly with corporations to advance their powers mutually https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2021/06/emails-show-amazon-rings-hold-lapd-through-camera-giveaways https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2021/06/emails-show-amazon-rin... I don’t ask someone to shoot their own foot to protect myself

mmmpop 4y ago

chc 4y ago
That was not my definition. Kiwi Farms will post their target's private info, the private info of everyone their target knows, send death threats to their target and their family, report false crimes to try and get SWAT teams to kill their target, etc. Ben Shapiro doesn't seem like a good person and I suspect he is probably sympathetic to many terrorists, but he is not himself a terrorist as far as I know.
- whalecancer 4y ago
- tlonny 4y ago
  What's your source on the SWAT-ing + death threats originating from Kiwi Farms? My understanding of that website is that it is moderated based on the philosophy of "look, don't touch". Your statement runs contrary to this...
  - chc 4y ago
    They are the top suspects in the swatting of the Twitch streamer Keffals and Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene just in the past month. There have been many news articles about it — I would suggest Googling and picking the source that seems most credible to you, since I've found linking specific sources tends to lead to people debating the source itself. (I'll be honest, I'm skeptical on the MTG one, but they are still the top suspects there.)
    - tlonny 4y ago
      I think expunging a website from the internet for "suspected" involvement in crime is a huge overreach. I think such a posture would encourage some to commit "false flag" SWAT-ing as a means to silence those they disagree with. SWAT-ing is a very serious crime, and if they are "top suspects" as you claim, I expect LE would be robustly investigating them. Thoughts?

whalecancer 4y ago

paganel 4y ago

Is Homeland Security actively following and prosecuting that group you mentioned? I mean, on account of them being allegedly "terrorists".

cfvsdfasdfasd 4y ago

Longlius 4y ago

KF's policy is very straightforward - do not engage with the people involved. Doing so or conspiring to do so is grounds for an immediate sitewide permaban.