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Ironically, Europe is now becoming dependent on Chinese LNG imports, much of which comes from Russia. The sanctions are not working. >The more desperate Europe

Ironically, Europe is now becoming dependent on Chinese LNG imports, much of which comes from Russia. The sanctions are not working. >The more desperate Europe becomes about its energy supplies, the more China’s policy decisions will have the power to affect the bloc. As Europe attempts to wrestle out of its dependence on Russia for energy, the irony is that it is becoming more dependent on China. https://www.ft.com/content/1e20467a-5b53-42b7-ad89-49808f7e1780 https://www.ft.com/content/1e20467a-5b53-42b7-ad89-49808f7e1... https://archive.ph/APcGS https://archive.ph/APcGS

pcrh 4y ago
More accurately, Europe is diversifying its energy sources at a very rapid pace. It imports a lot of LNG from the US for example. FTA: >Through these emergency measures, Europe looks to weather the coming winter, even if pipeline flows are 80 per cent lower than at normal times.
Brometheus 4y ago
For the moment. There's a strong urge in Germany to switch over to heatpumps and more renewables now. The gas is not coming back. The ministry of economy instructed city energy utilities to "stop investing" into their gas infrastructure...
- scottLobster 4y ago
  Germany is neither sunny nor windy, and is maintaining an anti-nuclear stance for the moment. I'm sure it will try a renewable play, waste tons of money for marginal results, and end up burning its local coal deposits instead. That or concede to Russian demands.
  - Brometheus 4y ago
    40% of our electricity comes from renewables already. And it would be much higher, if the Energiewende ("energy turn (to renewables)") hadn't been sabotaged by the same parties that wanted to use coal and gas (namely CDU and SPD).
    - scottLobster 4y ago
      German power consumption is around 500 TWh https://www.enerdata.net/estore/energy-market/germany/ https://www.enerdata.net/estore/energy-market/germany/ If 40% of that was renewable, that puts renewables' portion at around 200 TWh It's hard to find consolidated recent figures for German electricity storage capacity, but everything I can find lists it in double digit GWh at most, including battery and pumped storage capacity. https://www.hydropower.org/country-profiles/germany https://www.hydropower.org/country-profiles/germany https://www.energy-storage.news/germany-growth-in-home-and-industrial-sectors-but-large-scale-battery-storage-slowed-down-in-2019/ https://www.energy-storage.news/germany-growth-in-home-and-i... https://www.energy-storage.news/residential-segement-continues-to-drive-german-battery-storage-market-but-grid-scale-could-see-comeback/ https://www.energy-storage.news/residential-segement-continu... So there's clearly some creative accounting going on behind that 40% figure. Maybe it's 40% of raw power produced that then gets exported and pays for other sources or something, or maybe that 40% is strictly during the day and can't be replicated at night. But it's clear the storage necessary for a completely renewable grid is lacking by multiple orders of magnitude.
      - r00fus 4y ago
        You don't need equivalent storage to energy production. I'm not sure what the ratio should be but if you're offsetting 40% of production (ie, during the day) that's pretty good. Of course, you need baseload power generation for non-peak power, and DE really should have stayed with nuclear for that instead of pushing coal/gas.
  - hef19898 4y ago
    Local coal deposits are not economical anymore, haven't been for decades. We get our coal from places like Asia and Australia. Last time I checked Germany was among the leaders in Europe for installed PV capacity, ahead of Spain, Italy, Portugal and France. And the northern part is quite windy, ever heard of the north sea?
- vorpalhex 4y ago
  The most efficient appliance still needs electricity 24/7 to run. Even when it's dark and the wind isn't blowing.
  - Brometheus 4y ago
    We will implement storage in hydrogen for the winter. It's already on it's way (again).
- mdavis6890 4y ago
  Instead of what? Making the switch will require tremendous effort that must come from something else, which Germany will necessarily lose (not produce). Likely this would be distributed through the economy so that there will be a bit less of everything else - shoes, haircuts, food, etc.
  - Brometheus 4y ago
    We will produce the solar cells ourselves again and we have two of the biggest producers of wind power plants, so there's that. https://www.enercon.de/ https://www.enercon.de/ https://www.siemens.com/ https://www.siemens.com/
spywaregorilla 4y ago
If China buys from Russia at discounted prices because the demand for russian oil has fallen, and then resells at a higher price to Europe, it's not quite true that the sanctions are not working. Russia's bleeding out as well.
- jelliclesfarm 4y ago
  so is this like cutting the nose to spite the face?
  - spywaregorilla 4y ago
    I guess, though to me that idiom inappropriately suggests that the actions are not understood. This is direct economic warfare and it sucks but it's got clear strategic objectives.
    - jelliclesfarm 4y ago
      right. but how is this a 'win'?
      - spywaregorilla 4y ago
        The gradual decline of Russia is a strategic objective. You're allowed to disagree on whether that it's a net positive for western Europe.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- fomine3 4y ago
  But also market gas price is increased by sanctions.
syzar 4y ago
Russia’s economy is contracting so in what sense are sanctions not working? They aren’t 100% effective but they do appear to be having an effect and long term the effects, if sanctions remain, will force Russia into a pseudo vassal client of China.
- origin_path 4y ago
  The European gas sanctions specifically aren't working: 1. The gas is just being arbitraged via China. It's a commodity, it makes no sense to stop buying from source A and start buying from source B if B is willing to buy from A. 2. Gazprom is now making record-breaking profits. Europe is now facing an unprecedented and mostly self inflicted crisis of the type that didn't occur even during the cold war. The Russians claim they are willing to fill up to half of Nord Stream 2 the moment Germany decides to accept it. If that's a lie then the energy crisis is real. If it's not a lie then European leaders are manipulating the public - sanctioning Russia so they feel good and virtuous whilst simultaneously claiming the sanctions are the other way around and there's nothing they can do to get more gas. Sanctions on non-commodities like chips, specialist tools, infrastructure access? That can work and is probably having an impact. Sanctions on a commodity that can be moved around as a liquid? That can only work in theory if everyone does it despite the huge incentives to defect.
  - afiori 4y ago
    This economic war is being fought differently from the two sides: Russia is trying to squeeze as much money as possible out of Europe for gas and oil, Europe is trying to starve Russia of every thing else. Of course Gazprom is making record profit it is currently an unregulated adversarial monopoly. The sanction effect are thing like how the other week Russia was unable to operate some of its warship for lack of replacement parts.
    - origin_path 4y ago
      Gazprom does not have a monopoly on supplying gas, and the point of sanctions is not to make the sanctioned entity rich.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
morsch 4y ago
There are no sanctions on gas imports.
jelly 4y ago
"The sanctions" in this context being Russia's refusal to supply gas to Europe. The EU has not sanctioned Russian energy because they are dependent.
rich_sasha 4y ago
My understanding is that the gas China is reselling is not from Russia, or at least mostly, rather Middle East. Russian energy exports to China are small and without an obvious immediate way to increase it. It is also had that China has no use for si they are a beneficiary too.

pcrh 4y ago

More accurately, Europe is diversifying its energy sources at a very rapid pace. It imports a lot of LNG from the US for example. FTA: >Through these emergency measures, Europe looks to weather the coming winter, even if pipeline flows are 80 per cent lower than at normal times.

Brometheus 4y ago

For the moment. There's a strong urge in Germany to switch over to heatpumps and more renewables now. The gas is not coming back. The ministry of economy instructed city energy utilities to "stop investing" into their gas infrastructure...

scottLobster 4y ago
Germany is neither sunny nor windy, and is maintaining an anti-nuclear stance for the moment. I'm sure it will try a renewable play, waste tons of money for marginal results, and end up burning its local coal deposits instead. That or concede to Russian demands.
- Brometheus 4y ago
  40% of our electricity comes from renewables already. And it would be much higher, if the Energiewende ("energy turn (to renewables)") hadn't been sabotaged by the same parties that wanted to use coal and gas (namely CDU and SPD).
  - scottLobster 4y ago
    German power consumption is around 500 TWh https://www.enerdata.net/estore/energy-market/germany/ https://www.enerdata.net/estore/energy-market/germany/ If 40% of that was renewable, that puts renewables' portion at around 200 TWh It's hard to find consolidated recent figures for German electricity storage capacity, but everything I can find lists it in double digit GWh at most, including battery and pumped storage capacity. https://www.hydropower.org/country-profiles/germany https://www.hydropower.org/country-profiles/germany https://www.energy-storage.news/germany-growth-in-home-and-industrial-sectors-but-large-scale-battery-storage-slowed-down-in-2019/ https://www.energy-storage.news/germany-growth-in-home-and-i... https://www.energy-storage.news/residential-segement-continues-to-drive-german-battery-storage-market-but-grid-scale-could-see-comeback/ https://www.energy-storage.news/residential-segement-continu... So there's clearly some creative accounting going on behind that 40% figure. Maybe it's 40% of raw power produced that then gets exported and pays for other sources or something, or maybe that 40% is strictly during the day and can't be replicated at night. But it's clear the storage necessary for a completely renewable grid is lacking by multiple orders of magnitude.
    - r00fus 4y ago
      You don't need equivalent storage to energy production. I'm not sure what the ratio should be but if you're offsetting 40% of production (ie, during the day) that's pretty good. Of course, you need baseload power generation for non-peak power, and DE really should have stayed with nuclear for that instead of pushing coal/gas.
- hef19898 4y ago
  Local coal deposits are not economical anymore, haven't been for decades. We get our coal from places like Asia and Australia. Last time I checked Germany was among the leaders in Europe for installed PV capacity, ahead of Spain, Italy, Portugal and France. And the northern part is quite windy, ever heard of the north sea?
vorpalhex 4y ago
The most efficient appliance still needs electricity 24/7 to run. Even when it's dark and the wind isn't blowing.
- Brometheus 4y ago
  We will implement storage in hydrogen for the winter. It's already on it's way (again).
mdavis6890 4y ago
Instead of what? Making the switch will require tremendous effort that must come from something else, which Germany will necessarily lose (not produce). Likely this would be distributed through the economy so that there will be a bit less of everything else - shoes, haircuts, food, etc.
- Brometheus 4y ago
  We will produce the solar cells ourselves again and we have two of the biggest producers of wind power plants, so there's that. https://www.enercon.de/ https://www.enercon.de/ https://www.siemens.com/ https://www.siemens.com/

spywaregorilla 4y ago

If China buys from Russia at discounted prices because the demand for russian oil has fallen, and then resells at a higher price to Europe, it's not quite true that the sanctions are not working. Russia's bleeding out as well.

jelliclesfarm 4y ago
so is this like cutting the nose to spite the face?
- spywaregorilla 4y ago
  I guess, though to me that idiom inappropriately suggests that the actions are not understood. This is direct economic warfare and it sucks but it's got clear strategic objectives.
  - jelliclesfarm 4y ago
    right. but how is this a 'win'?
    - spywaregorilla 4y ago
      The gradual decline of Russia is a strategic objective. You're allowed to disagree on whether that it's a net positive for western Europe.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
fomine3 4y ago
But also market gas price is increased by sanctions.

syzar 4y ago

Russia’s economy is contracting so in what sense are sanctions not working? They aren’t 100% effective but they do appear to be having an effect and long term the effects, if sanctions remain, will force Russia into a pseudo vassal client of China.

origin_path 4y ago
The European gas sanctions specifically aren't working: 1. The gas is just being arbitraged via China. It's a commodity, it makes no sense to stop buying from source A and start buying from source B if B is willing to buy from A. 2. Gazprom is now making record-breaking profits. Europe is now facing an unprecedented and mostly self inflicted crisis of the type that didn't occur even during the cold war. The Russians claim they are willing to fill up to half of Nord Stream 2 the moment Germany decides to accept it. If that's a lie then the energy crisis is real. If it's not a lie then European leaders are manipulating the public - sanctioning Russia so they feel good and virtuous whilst simultaneously claiming the sanctions are the other way around and there's nothing they can do to get more gas. Sanctions on non-commodities like chips, specialist tools, infrastructure access? That can work and is probably having an impact. Sanctions on a commodity that can be moved around as a liquid? That can only work in theory if everyone does it despite the huge incentives to defect.
- afiori 4y ago
  This economic war is being fought differently from the two sides: Russia is trying to squeeze as much money as possible out of Europe for gas and oil, Europe is trying to starve Russia of every thing else. Of course Gazprom is making record profit it is currently an unregulated adversarial monopoly. The sanction effect are thing like how the other week Russia was unable to operate some of its warship for lack of replacement parts.
  - origin_path 4y ago
    Gazprom does not have a monopoly on supplying gas, and the point of sanctions is not to make the sanctioned entity rich.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

morsch 4y ago

There are no sanctions on gas imports.

jelly 4y ago

"The sanctions" in this context being Russia's refusal to supply gas to Europe. The EU has not sanctioned Russian energy because they are dependent.

rich_sasha 4y ago

My understanding is that the gas China is reselling is not from Russia, or at least mostly, rather Middle East. Russian energy exports to China are small and without an obvious immediate way to increase it. It is also had that China has no use for si they are a beneficiary too.