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It's not unthinking fundamentalism, it's an understanding of the reality of the consumer internet market. What does a focal point have to do with this? There'

by count 15y ago

It's not unthinking fundamentalism, it's an understanding of the reality of the consumer internet market. What does a focal point have to do with this? There's no absence of information on either side, unless you just chose to ignore what you signed. The ISP is providing you connectivity to their network, generally through a heavily subsidized connection, for you to get 'Internet' access. Discriminating between business customers and home users is something that occurs in many industries (see wholesale/retail). You get a significantly reduced price as a home user for reduced connectivity options/flexibility. If you want or need the flexibility, you pay more and get a neutral connection, where they will (generally) happily route you whatever you need and can justify. It's not an invalid contract, and what was suggested is fraud at it's most basic level. I don't see how it's different from using a vehicle as a business vehicle, but claiming it's a personal use vehicle to your insurance company to get a cheaper rate.

mindslight 15y ago
The concept of a demarcation point is a focal point across all telcom contracts, akin to the concept of a property lines. Unless MA Bell is going to own all the equipment in your house, their responsibilities need to end at a clear point. To see the physical manifestation, open up the first layer (yours) of the phone box on the outside of a residence (and note that the second layer requires a different kind of screwdriver!) Wholesale is cheaper because the overhead per unit is reduced. Business class connections give you a static IP and hopefully service commitments. These things have differences in what is actually being provided, not just a contract which says 'for business'. People work from home on consumer connections all the time, and there's probably a vestigal clause in those service contracts about 'not for business use'. And people declare business vehicles because they're cheaper as tax writeoffs (and then do use them personally as a perk of the business). Telling the providers that I have one device hooked to their network (even though I have more devices hooked to that one) is separation of concerns, not fraud. Should they be able to bill me more based on my yearly income? That surely is every businesses dream - the ultimate in price descrimination. The only thing the carrier should be concerned about is the quantity and size of packets I send through them. If anything is fraud, it's the carriers advertising 'unlimited internet', then hassling you for using it too much, and mangling your packets in direct contradiction of the seminal End-to-End paper.
- count 15y ago
  I completely agree with you on the false advertising. That said, I think it's disingenuous to compare a residential network connection with a commercial telecom contract, as they provide fundamentally different things. The cross connect or peering contract you sign at Equinix is radically different in every way from the service agreement you establish with a residential vendor. I disagree with residential connections having a separation of concerns. Cox, Comcast, et. al. ALL provide desktop technical support to get PCs, laptops, ipads, etc. on the Internets. In many cases, exactly like Ma Bell, they own everything but your PC, and provide configuration assistance and technical support for even that. Now, I'm not arguing this is a positive thing, just that it is the reality of the situation in the vast majority of cases. You do NOT have a contract that says 'the demarc is X, with a commit of N Mbps' or the like, you have a contract which says 'you can use this connection and our equipment, and we'll support you, for one device, for this type of usage'. Like it or not, you're not buying a neutral communication line - hell, in many cases, the cable or fiber plant isn't even required to be open to competing service like a LEC has to be.
  - mindslight 15y ago
    You're conflating the internet access that ISPs sell with the PC technical support they're forced to provide so granny doesn't cancel when her ethernet cable gets unplugged. Of course the bundled PC support won't troubleshoot your 20 device home network. For technical users, PC technical support is just an annoying hurdle to clear in order to fix a connectivity problem. I was comparing residential connections to small business connections, which only differ in static IPs and contractual guarantees. Most people engaged in home business activities do not have these connections. You're engaging in 'contract fundamentalism' because you're bringing up all these vestigial clauses inserted by the ISP's legal compiler into their document-that-nobody-reads while ignoring the actual contract, which is determined by the understanding between parties. As far as any user is concerned, the only actions of theirs that matter are whether they pay their bill and whether they set off the ISP's hassle-this-user system. I'm sure many ISPs have clauses about multiple devices, running "servers", piracy, business use, wifi, swearing/offending people, etc. But the only time they even come close to mattering is when the ISP is the target of a legal attack.

by count 15y ago

mindslight 15y ago

The concept of a demarcation point is a focal point across all telcom contracts, akin to the concept of a property lines. Unless MA Bell is going to own all the equipment in your house, their responsibilities need to end at a clear point. To see the physical manifestation, open up the first layer (yours) of the phone box on the outside of a residence (and note that the second layer requires a different kind of screwdriver!) Wholesale is cheaper because the overhead per unit is reduced. Business class connections give you a static IP and hopefully service commitments. These things have differences in what is actually being provided, not just a contract which says 'for business'. People work from home on consumer connections all the time, and there's probably a vestigal clause in those service contracts about 'not for business use'. And people declare business vehicles because they're cheaper as tax writeoffs (and then do use them personally as a perk of the business). Telling the providers that I have one device hooked to their network (even though I have more devices hooked to that one) is separation of concerns, not fraud. Should they be able to bill me more based on my yearly income? That surely is every businesses dream - the ultimate in price descrimination. The only thing the carrier should be concerned about is the quantity and size of packets I send through them. If anything is fraud, it's the carriers advertising 'unlimited internet', then hassling you for using it too much, and mangling your packets in direct contradiction of the seminal End-to-End paper.

count 15y ago
I completely agree with you on the false advertising. That said, I think it's disingenuous to compare a residential network connection with a commercial telecom contract, as they provide fundamentally different things. The cross connect or peering contract you sign at Equinix is radically different in every way from the service agreement you establish with a residential vendor. I disagree with residential connections having a separation of concerns. Cox, Comcast, et. al. ALL provide desktop technical support to get PCs, laptops, ipads, etc. on the Internets. In many cases, exactly like Ma Bell, they own everything but your PC, and provide configuration assistance and technical support for even that. Now, I'm not arguing this is a positive thing, just that it is the reality of the situation in the vast majority of cases. You do NOT have a contract that says 'the demarc is X, with a commit of N Mbps' or the like, you have a contract which says 'you can use this connection and our equipment, and we'll support you, for one device, for this type of usage'. Like it or not, you're not buying a neutral communication line - hell, in many cases, the cable or fiber plant isn't even required to be open to competing service like a LEC has to be.
- mindslight 15y ago
  You're conflating the internet access that ISPs sell with the PC technical support they're forced to provide so granny doesn't cancel when her ethernet cable gets unplugged. Of course the bundled PC support won't troubleshoot your 20 device home network. For technical users, PC technical support is just an annoying hurdle to clear in order to fix a connectivity problem. I was comparing residential connections to small business connections, which only differ in static IPs and contractual guarantees. Most people engaged in home business activities do not have these connections. You're engaging in 'contract fundamentalism' because you're bringing up all these vestigial clauses inserted by the ISP's legal compiler into their document-that-nobody-reads while ignoring the actual contract, which is determined by the understanding between parties. As far as any user is concerned, the only actions of theirs that matter are whether they pay their bill and whether they set off the ISP's hassle-this-user system. I'm sure many ISPs have clauses about multiple devices, running "servers", piracy, business use, wifi, swearing/offending people, etc. But the only time they even come close to mattering is when the ISP is the target of a legal attack.