3 ms·

I don't think your dismissive attitude towards people does you many favors and I wonder if it's a lack of empathy on your part or frustration from watching peop

I don't think your dismissive attitude towards people does you many favors and I wonder if it's a lack of empathy on your part or frustration from watching people doing the wrong thing over and over, which I also experience a lot. But if you look at a single being as a person instead of just one sheep, their reasoning is, even if sometimes short-sighted, often sound for their circumstances. There are many pros and cons to decisions and many of the cons concerning surveillance, locked down functionality etc. are often pretty abstract and far away. The problem with many of these technologies is not really what they do today, but rather were it may lead when the become the number one choice and that is much harder for a single person to evaluate or care about. Especially since choice often is an illusion and you can either accept the drawbacks (which in reality will rarely actually affect yourself) or stand out in the rain with your principles intact. The just as mythical market people like to uphold here on hacker news does not serve differences of sensibilities here. Either get a phone/tv/computer with tracking or ads, or get one which can not play online video. Either get a digital assistant that tracks your every move (though you probably will suffer no drawbacks because of this) or get none at all. Those are bad choices and as much as it aggravates me if people just shrug, I also find it often very hard to tell them of an alternative, because the alternative is more often than not not to play at all. (Or, if someone wants to mention the small subset of open source solutions, paying a hefty premium for years out of date hardware and buggy to non functioning software, of course only if you are even aware they exist!) I find it really difficult to fault people for that, unless we take the broader view and fault them for the system itself.

betwixthewires 4y ago
I don't disagree. There's no lack of empathy. My only point is, things are made for people that will use them. If you don't like those things then that means they're not for you, use something else instead of complain about it.
- Grumbledour 4y ago
  And that is exactly what I try to argue against. I think its a fair assumption here on hacker news, that most users are creators rather than consumers. And as such, the piece of software they "would never use" is very likely one they (or one of their peers) wrote. I don't think it is a particularly good look to write adtech by day and run ublock by night, but even more than that it is also hardly sustainable. The custom solutions we run in our ivory towers and don't share with the plebes get harder and harder to create on bad, locked down platforms we help build for "them". And I also think the assumption, that when it does not serve us, it serves them well, is also a false one. They may not know better, because they are not creators, but I think most folk have realized that computers and software often acts against their users interest. So, who is supposed to change this, if not the people who have the knowledge and do actually build these systems? Just saying "I use something else and its their fault for not doing the same" does only make us accomplices in making the world worse for all.
  - mpol 4y ago
    "...but I think most folk have realized that computers and software often acts against their users interest." Ehm, yes, but they still choose to use Facebook, Twitter and a Solitaire with ads. When I show them my Linux desktop and phone, they look in horror. And when I tell them I do programming, they think I am to blame for their garbage software. "So, who is supposed to change this, if not the people who have the knowledge and do actually build these systems?" The people building these systems are into this hellhole as well. Sure, advertising people run adblockers, but the people who build garbage software mostly use garbage software. The people that avoid this mess cannot unbuild Facebook, Twitter and Solitaire with ads. They can only build different things, while not being able to guide users towards it, since they mostly still choose garbage software. The people making unpopular choices have no real power to change things for better for the masses.

betwixthewires 4y ago

I don't disagree. There's no lack of empathy. My only point is, things are made for people that will use them. If you don't like those things then that means they're not for you, use something else instead of complain about it.

Grumbledour 4y ago
And that is exactly what I try to argue against. I think its a fair assumption here on hacker news, that most users are creators rather than consumers. And as such, the piece of software they "would never use" is very likely one they (or one of their peers) wrote. I don't think it is a particularly good look to write adtech by day and run ublock by night, but even more than that it is also hardly sustainable. The custom solutions we run in our ivory towers and don't share with the plebes get harder and harder to create on bad, locked down platforms we help build for "them". And I also think the assumption, that when it does not serve us, it serves them well, is also a false one. They may not know better, because they are not creators, but I think most folk have realized that computers and software often acts against their users interest. So, who is supposed to change this, if not the people who have the knowledge and do actually build these systems? Just saying "I use something else and its their fault for not doing the same" does only make us accomplices in making the world worse for all.
- mpol 4y ago
  "...but I think most folk have realized that computers and software often acts against their users interest." Ehm, yes, but they still choose to use Facebook, Twitter and a Solitaire with ads. When I show them my Linux desktop and phone, they look in horror. And when I tell them I do programming, they think I am to blame for their garbage software. "So, who is supposed to change this, if not the people who have the knowledge and do actually build these systems?" The people building these systems are into this hellhole as well. Sure, advertising people run adblockers, but the people who build garbage software mostly use garbage software. The people that avoid this mess cannot unbuild Facebook, Twitter and Solitaire with ads. They can only build different things, while not being able to guide users towards it, since they mostly still choose garbage software. The people making unpopular choices have no real power to change things for better for the masses.