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Do you understand what I mean by "kiosk"? It's not entirely derogatory, it's not a meaningless insult. Just because you can use a piece of software to accomplis

Do you understand what I mean by "kiosk"? It's not entirely derogatory, it's not a meaningless insult. Just because you can use a piece of software to accomplish your goals doesn't make it not a kiosk. A kiosk is a type of interface that intentionally limits functionality to restrict user behavior to behavior desired by the actual operator. The Redbox at 7-11 is running kiosk software. It works perfectly when you want it to spit out a DVD. So I've got a device in my hands right now, and I can make calls and browse the web and talk to my friends. But you know what I can't do? Change the default DNS server. Why do you think that is? My device is physically capable of this, the Linux kernel running on this device is capable of it, yet the system prevents me from doing so. What if I want to? It's mine isn't it? Why is it deliberately designed to prevent me from doing so? It's a kiosk. Just because it does everything you need it for doesn't change this, it just means your needs are very limited. You're wrong about Linux BTW. You can do anything you want with it, with as much ease as you desire. You sound like you feel insulted by what I said and are trying to hit back, which is childish, and you sound like you haven't used a Linux system since 1999. It's not about ideology. It's about being able to do anything with my property that it is capable of doing. I don't like being kneecapped, would you buy a kitchen knife with a handle deliberately designed to only work when wielded with your right hand? If you're right handed it does everything you need it to. Yet most people would consider it inferior, and even consider it insulting to their intelligence if such a knife was on a shelf in front of them with a price tag on it.

Dalewyn 4y ago
>A kiosk is a type of interface that intentionally limits functionality to restrict user behavior to behavior desired by the actual operator. So Debian? Who are holding a grand discussion on the merits of making "non-free firmware" more accessible? So GNU? Who insist everything must be free-as-in-freedom and open source and anything to the contrary is a cardinal sin? Meanwhile, the rest of the world carries on. >But you know what I can't do? Change the default DNS server. You can do this on both Windows and Android. I have no direct knowledge on iOS/MacOS, but I presume they also do it because why wouldn't they? Perhaps a better example was called for, but DNS servers configurations an example ain't. >It's a kiosk. Just because it does everything you need it for doesn't change this, Your definition of a not-kiosk was, quote: "they ... enable you to operate your property". Windows, Android, iOS (and MacOS) let me (and the vast majority of people) operate my (and their) property. Desktop Linux can't (or won't). OS market shares are an objective evidence of this. >it just means your needs are very limited. My "needs" are my need or desire to operate my property. What I do with my property is none of your business, unless we're talking ideologies (and it would still be none of your business, really). >You're wrong about Linux BTW. You can do anything you want with it, with as much ease as you desire. Sure, I can do anything I want with it; if it's something the distro devs are concerned with. And yes, I can do it as easily as I want; so long as I don't step outside the command line. I give many flavors of Linux a shot every few years, and every time I fail to find a practical desktop use case the machine could serve me that something else wouldn't do better for much less effort and stress. >It's not about ideology. Far as I can tell, this is all about the ideology. You said it yourself that my "needs are very limited". Why do you care about the nature of my needs? I need a kitchen knife, I bought a kitchen knife, and I argue for the kitchen knife. You're telling me I'm wrong because the kitchen knife has a handle of a shape you don't like. The kitchen knife suits me, what's it to you? Also, why would anyone left-handed be pissed off at a right-handed kitchen knife? If they don't like it, don't buy it. No need to get insulted over it. There are plenty of other, valid things to be insulted over in life.
- betwixthewires 4y ago
  > You can do this on both Windows and Android. Tell me how then. It's nothing to me that you're happy with a kiosk. I'm not. That's the whole point of top level comment.
  - Dalewyn 4y ago
    For Windows, it's mostly the same as always even on Windows 11. It's under the IPv4 (or IPv6 as applicable) properties of whichever connection you're using. The exact way to get to it varies slightly by Windows version, but it's somewhere under the vicinity of Control Panel -> Network and Internet -> Network Connections (this particular example is from Windows 7). For Android, this also varies slightly by each device manufacturer's own flavor of Android, but it's usually somewhere under the section to do with device connections (Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, etc.) and is called "Private DNS". You need to give it a hostname (usually a domain name, eg: dns.google for 8.8.8.8 and 8.8.4.4.) rather than an IP address, presumably because it's DNS Over HTTPS? I'm not quite sure why it doesn't take IP addresses.
    - betwixthewires 4y ago
      I was asking specifically for android, should've clarified that. I was fully expecting this exact answer btw. Switching to DoH or private DNS in Android does not change the default DNS. How do you think you get the IP from the hostname when you enable DoH? 8.8.8.8 is hard coded and there's no way to change it without hacky stuff. Every time you request a record from your configured DoH server, it queries 8.8.8.8 to get the IP of that server hostname. I chose this example specifically because I'm extremely familiar with it, a good example it does make. Are you still unsure why you can't enter an IP address instead of a hostname? There's literally no user oriented reason for this, the developer had to go out of their way to prevent it. This sort of deliberate restriction is why I call it a kiosk. Why wouldn't they indeed. And it's not the only one in android, and it hasn't always been there. It was introduced in a later version, early versions of android left the DNS server configurable. Another good one is tethering reporting to your carrier. Look into how that works, it's ridiculous. Why is my device doing things I don't want it to do and preventing me from stopping it? Is this thing mine or not?

Dalewyn 4y ago

>A kiosk is a type of interface that intentionally limits functionality to restrict user behavior to behavior desired by the actual operator. So Debian? Who are holding a grand discussion on the merits of making "non-free firmware" more accessible? So GNU? Who insist everything must be free-as-in-freedom and open source and anything to the contrary is a cardinal sin? Meanwhile, the rest of the world carries on. >But you know what I can't do? Change the default DNS server. You can do this on both Windows and Android. I have no direct knowledge on iOS/MacOS, but I presume they also do it because why wouldn't they? Perhaps a better example was called for, but DNS servers configurations an example ain't. >It's a kiosk. Just because it does everything you need it for doesn't change this, Your definition of a not-kiosk was, quote: "they ... enable you to operate your property". Windows, Android, iOS (and MacOS) let me (and the vast majority of people) operate my (and their) property. Desktop Linux can't (or won't). OS market shares are an objective evidence of this. >it just means your needs are very limited. My "needs" are my need or desire to operate my property. What I do with my property is none of your business, unless we're talking ideologies (and it would still be none of your business, really). >You're wrong about Linux BTW. You can do anything you want with it, with as much ease as you desire. Sure, I can do anything I want with it; if it's something the distro devs are concerned with. And yes, I can do it as easily as I want; so long as I don't step outside the command line. I give many flavors of Linux a shot every few years, and every time I fail to find a practical desktop use case the machine could serve me that something else wouldn't do better for much less effort and stress. >It's not about ideology. Far as I can tell, this is all about the ideology. You said it yourself that my "needs are very limited". Why do you care about the nature of my needs? I need a kitchen knife, I bought a kitchen knife, and I argue for the kitchen knife. You're telling me I'm wrong because the kitchen knife has a handle of a shape you don't like. The kitchen knife suits me, what's it to you? Also, why would anyone left-handed be pissed off at a right-handed kitchen knife? If they don't like it, don't buy it. No need to get insulted over it. There are plenty of other, valid things to be insulted over in life.

betwixthewires 4y ago
> You can do this on both Windows and Android. Tell me how then. It's nothing to me that you're happy with a kiosk. I'm not. That's the whole point of top level comment.
- Dalewyn 4y ago
  For Windows, it's mostly the same as always even on Windows 11. It's under the IPv4 (or IPv6 as applicable) properties of whichever connection you're using. The exact way to get to it varies slightly by Windows version, but it's somewhere under the vicinity of Control Panel -> Network and Internet -> Network Connections (this particular example is from Windows 7). For Android, this also varies slightly by each device manufacturer's own flavor of Android, but it's usually somewhere under the section to do with device connections (Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, etc.) and is called "Private DNS". You need to give it a hostname (usually a domain name, eg: dns.google for 8.8.8.8 and 8.8.4.4.) rather than an IP address, presumably because it's DNS Over HTTPS? I'm not quite sure why it doesn't take IP addresses.
  - betwixthewires 4y ago
    I was asking specifically for android, should've clarified that. I was fully expecting this exact answer btw. Switching to DoH or private DNS in Android does not change the default DNS. How do you think you get the IP from the hostname when you enable DoH? 8.8.8.8 is hard coded and there's no way to change it without hacky stuff. Every time you request a record from your configured DoH server, it queries 8.8.8.8 to get the IP of that server hostname. I chose this example specifically because I'm extremely familiar with it, a good example it does make. Are you still unsure why you can't enter an IP address instead of a hostname? There's literally no user oriented reason for this, the developer had to go out of their way to prevent it. This sort of deliberate restriction is why I call it a kiosk. Why wouldn't they indeed. And it's not the only one in android, and it hasn't always been there. It was introduced in a later version, early versions of android left the DNS server configurable. Another good one is tethering reporting to your carrier. Look into how that works, it's ridiculous. Why is my device doing things I don't want it to do and preventing me from stopping it? Is this thing mine or not?