4 ms·

Well, if proximity detonation is an issue, there's always weapons like CIWS [1] and C-RAM [2]. I imagine there could easily be some kind of adaption made for sp

Well, if proximity detonation is an issue, there's always weapons like CIWS [1] and C-RAM [2]. I imagine there could easily be some kind of adaption made for specialized ammo. Instead of typical bullets, use some kind of very low grade concussive. The explosive wouldn't necessarily need to be an explosive, but merely just something to disrupt the air around one or two blades of the drone to force it into an unrecoverable spin. Similar to small grade concussives, I've heard some interesting defense systems use a projectile that has a kind of "mini parachute" to overwhelm target acquisition systems. I can't recall what it was in relation to. Chaff, maybe? The point is, if you could get enough small objects floating in the area, you could make it much harder for an enemy drone to maneuver within a specific area. Honestly, I think the soon-to-be hurdle would be around implementing a good jamming system against automated defenses, which would probably lead to inventing some sort of miniaturized version of current fighter planes, but built in such a way that doesn't need to account for things like G tolerance for pilots. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zsf38NYzo5Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zsf38NYzo5Q [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phpabF_5ulU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phpabF_5ulU

lazide 4y ago
None of those is going to be a good idea using in a stadium, above a crowd, with buildings in the background (less than 100 yards away), etc. which are the big threat areas. Drones that can carry a couple pounds or more of C4 (which is a lot) can fly literally 10 ft above roof tops and crowds at 100+ mph while zig zagging through buildings and alleyways - fully autonomously. This isn’t theory, there are live demonstrations on YouTube.
- CraigJPerry 4y ago
  There is no demonstration on youtube of a drone carrying a few pounds at 100mph. >> zig zagging through buildings and alleyways - fully autonomously Also never been done
  - lazide 4y ago
    Zigzagging through a forest fully autonomously (with no GPS) - there are videos on YouTube of a Swiss company doing similar. [https://youtu.be/m89bNn6RFoQ https://youtu.be/m89bNn6RFoQ] The alleyways are a simpler version [https://amp.france24.com/en/live-news/20220504-drone-swarms-can-now-fly-autonomously-through-thick-forest https://amp.france24.com/en/live-news/20220504-drone-swarms-...] Here is a YouTube video of a demonstration with a hexcopter capable of carrying 10+ lbs. [https://youtu.be/ODQT_hQsQgc https://youtu.be/ODQT_hQsQgc] And here is a dude flying a DJI Inspire (not the same as above) carrying 5 lbs. [https://youtu.be/DKr-yj68VJs https://youtu.be/DKr-yj68VJs] Folks have been using those and similar (cheaper) drones to drop Grenades on tanks in Ukraine. As the autonomous flight is harder with smaller drones (less computing payload available, worse sensors), the only reason you’re not seeing both of these parts together in urban environment is the implication (for national security). It is there.
    - CraigJPerry 4y ago
      >> Zigzagging through a forest At speeds of up to 40kmh, the claim was 100mph+ >> The alleyways are a simpler version Here's the video of that https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lr7L2t-svJQ&t=16s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lr7L2t-svJQ&t=16s - that's below 5mph and carrying an external payload of 0 grams, and the reason it's in a forest is because you can't fit them all in an alleyway and you need multiple in order for them to work. >> Here is a YouTube video of a demonstration with a hexcopter At 22mph, the claim was 100mph+ >> And here is a dude flying a DJI Inspire At around 20 mph max but mostly hovering and for 8 minutes at that before running out of juice >> Folks have been using those No. People like yourself can easily dream this concept. It stands to reason, why wouldn't it be possible? The truth is that battery technology is no where near good enough yet. It's the first idea tried in Syria, it's been tried thousands of times at this point and yet we have more documented cases of the aggressors killing or injuring themselves than of the 3 documented cases where this actually worked in practice - all 3 of which i think everyone can agree from the footage are pure fluke. Zero aiming was possible, it was just release and hope for the best in all 3 cases. What people are actually using them for is for recon and aiming of artillery. They're effective in these roles and that's why they're used for this rather than strapping heavy explosives to them. >> autonomous flight is harder with smaller drones (less computing payload available That's not true. Compute isn't a restriction in small drone autonomy. A basic F4 is wayyyyy overkill for flight stability and control. Waypoint navigation is even lower power requirements since it amounts to a simple loop not much more complex than: 1. Get current GPS coordinates 2. Get current compass heading 3. Send directional input via serial peripheral to F3 or F4 flight controller 4. Repeat The flight controller is doing far more processing than this - gyro input & smoothing for each of 3 axes, accelerometer (same), GPS location at approx 10Hz, optionally barometric input (rare and usually not necessary). These inputs are often processed through kalmann filter before finally calculating the torque command to issue to each ESC's microcontroller. This only happens at up to a few hundred Hz so you can see compute power is not a restriction. In larger aircraft it's harder because you can't beat physics, in a small drone i can change the amount of torque applied to a propeller 4+ times per rotation in toy off the shelf drone tech today. With larger craft that have non-electric motors this is simply not possible. You can't instruct a mechanical engine to regulate its power output with the same fidelity of an electric motor. >> worse sensors The only required input sensor is a gyro - in practice we use accelerometers and GPS in autonomous drones but there are ways of avoiding the need for these (e.g. visual inputs / optical flow as a correction for drift). MEMS gyros are cheap and effective, what better sensors do you need? Your reasoning is uninformed / dreamed up based on watching too many movies and not being familiar with the actual discipline. Better algorithms are a restriction. The science / theory part of implementation was achieved by all projects fairly quickly (ardupilot, clean/betaflight, etc. etc.) - but the art part, the how it feels and performs in practice, is an unsolved problem under continual development. >> drop Grenades Too heavy given current battery technology and lack of aiming. These are not effective weapons which is why they have limited success. More people have been killed in war zones in the past decade by garden spades than toy / photo drones with explosives. TL;DR until batteries technology moves forward by a few generations, the concept of a small drone as an offensive weapon will not be better than that offered by something like the switchblade drone. Which when you cut through the excitment, is less valuable than conventional weaponry in most fight scenarios.

lazide 4y ago

None of those is going to be a good idea using in a stadium, above a crowd, with buildings in the background (less than 100 yards away), etc. which are the big threat areas. Drones that can carry a couple pounds or more of C4 (which is a lot) can fly literally 10 ft above roof tops and crowds at 100+ mph while zig zagging through buildings and alleyways - fully autonomously. This isn’t theory, there are live demonstrations on YouTube.

CraigJPerry 4y ago
There is no demonstration on youtube of a drone carrying a few pounds at 100mph. >> zig zagging through buildings and alleyways - fully autonomously Also never been done
- lazide 4y ago
  Zigzagging through a forest fully autonomously (with no GPS) - there are videos on YouTube of a Swiss company doing similar. [https://youtu.be/m89bNn6RFoQ https://youtu.be/m89bNn6RFoQ] The alleyways are a simpler version [https://amp.france24.com/en/live-news/20220504-drone-swarms-can-now-fly-autonomously-through-thick-forest https://amp.france24.com/en/live-news/20220504-drone-swarms-...] Here is a YouTube video of a demonstration with a hexcopter capable of carrying 10+ lbs. [https://youtu.be/ODQT_hQsQgc https://youtu.be/ODQT_hQsQgc] And here is a dude flying a DJI Inspire (not the same as above) carrying 5 lbs. [https://youtu.be/DKr-yj68VJs https://youtu.be/DKr-yj68VJs] Folks have been using those and similar (cheaper) drones to drop Grenades on tanks in Ukraine. As the autonomous flight is harder with smaller drones (less computing payload available, worse sensors), the only reason you’re not seeing both of these parts together in urban environment is the implication (for national security). It is there.
  - CraigJPerry 4y ago
    >> Zigzagging through a forest At speeds of up to 40kmh, the claim was 100mph+ >> The alleyways are a simpler version Here's the video of that https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lr7L2t-svJQ&t=16s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lr7L2t-svJQ&t=16s - that's below 5mph and carrying an external payload of 0 grams, and the reason it's in a forest is because you can't fit them all in an alleyway and you need multiple in order for them to work. >> Here is a YouTube video of a demonstration with a hexcopter At 22mph, the claim was 100mph+ >> And here is a dude flying a DJI Inspire At around 20 mph max but mostly hovering and for 8 minutes at that before running out of juice >> Folks have been using those No. People like yourself can easily dream this concept. It stands to reason, why wouldn't it be possible? The truth is that battery technology is no where near good enough yet. It's the first idea tried in Syria, it's been tried thousands of times at this point and yet we have more documented cases of the aggressors killing or injuring themselves than of the 3 documented cases where this actually worked in practice - all 3 of which i think everyone can agree from the footage are pure fluke. Zero aiming was possible, it was just release and hope for the best in all 3 cases. What people are actually using them for is for recon and aiming of artillery. They're effective in these roles and that's why they're used for this rather than strapping heavy explosives to them. >> autonomous flight is harder with smaller drones (less computing payload available That's not true. Compute isn't a restriction in small drone autonomy. A basic F4 is wayyyyy overkill for flight stability and control. Waypoint navigation is even lower power requirements since it amounts to a simple loop not much more complex than: 1. Get current GPS coordinates 2. Get current compass heading 3. Send directional input via serial peripheral to F3 or F4 flight controller 4. Repeat The flight controller is doing far more processing than this - gyro input & smoothing for each of 3 axes, accelerometer (same), GPS location at approx 10Hz, optionally barometric input (rare and usually not necessary). These inputs are often processed through kalmann filter before finally calculating the torque command to issue to each ESC's microcontroller. This only happens at up to a few hundred Hz so you can see compute power is not a restriction. In larger aircraft it's harder because you can't beat physics, in a small drone i can change the amount of torque applied to a propeller 4+ times per rotation in toy off the shelf drone tech today. With larger craft that have non-electric motors this is simply not possible. You can't instruct a mechanical engine to regulate its power output with the same fidelity of an electric motor. >> worse sensors The only required input sensor is a gyro - in practice we use accelerometers and GPS in autonomous drones but there are ways of avoiding the need for these (e.g. visual inputs / optical flow as a correction for drift). MEMS gyros are cheap and effective, what better sensors do you need? Your reasoning is uninformed / dreamed up based on watching too many movies and not being familiar with the actual discipline. Better algorithms are a restriction. The science / theory part of implementation was achieved by all projects fairly quickly (ardupilot, clean/betaflight, etc. etc.) - but the art part, the how it feels and performs in practice, is an unsolved problem under continual development. >> drop Grenades Too heavy given current battery technology and lack of aiming. These are not effective weapons which is why they have limited success. More people have been killed in war zones in the past decade by garden spades than toy / photo drones with explosives. TL;DR until batteries technology moves forward by a few generations, the concept of a small drone as an offensive weapon will not be better than that offered by something like the switchblade drone. Which when you cut through the excitment, is less valuable than conventional weaponry in most fight scenarios.