4 ms·

Former Microsoft director of user experience trashes Windows 11 Start menu

superchroma 4y ago
"From December 2008 to October 2014, he led the team responsible for the redesign of the software user experience of Surface and Windows. Windows 10 was released in July 2015" Ah, the guy that brought us touch-friendly tiles. On desktop. He makes good points, though.
jmpman 4y ago
I just want the Windows 95 start menu experience. Simple. Worked. I’ve stopped using Windows because I despise the interface so much. Wasn’t a huge Mac fan, but not that I’ve figured out the quirks, I prefer Mac.
- qball 4y ago
  >but not that I’ve figured out the quirks, I prefer Mac And yet, Macs still need third-party software to do window management properly. Not even Monterey lets you snap windows by simply dragging them to the side of the screen, a feature both Windows and all Linux DEs have had for the past 15+ years! It's unfortunate that you now need to pay the same 10 bucks for the Rectangle equivalent on Windows (that being StartAllBack), but ultimately Windows has passed the point where it needed to sell itself as being better and easier to use and now just chases new shiny at the expense of what happens when you purposefully ignore Fitts' Law so people who want to do actual work need to pay to get the old features back. I guess that's just the way it goes sometimes.
  - mwint 4y ago
    Monterey does let you snap windows by dragging them to the side of the screen.
    - qball 4y ago
      For reference, I'm expecting windowing behavior in macOS to do exactly what Windows does: when you drag a window to the boundary (edge or corner) of the screen, it should automatically resize to that half or quadrant of the screen. Monterey doesn't do this out of the box (I don't believe I'm using it wrong- even if there is an unpublished keyboard shortcut to trigger it, I don't have to use such a shortcut in any other WM), and the behavior it does have is severely lacking. For starters, you have to manually hover over the button hiding the feature to use it, and that button isn't on the edge of a window (worst-case for accessibility, per Fitts' Law). Additionally, its window-arranging features aren't capable of arranging more than 2 windows on the screen (you can't do it by quadrant like you can with other tilers), and it also puts them into full-screen mode so it both hides the menu bar and you can't easily just pull them out of the arrangement like you can with other WMs. I don't believe there are currently any plans to fix this, and that might be just as well (the term 'Sherlocked' originates from Apple for a very good reason), but the fact that it took them 15 years to come up with a half-assed version of what Windows was doing in 2006 isn't actually that great a look.
      - mwint 4y ago
        My bad, what I was seeing was the free Spectacle utility doing snap-on-drag. It’s so good I thought it was part of the system.
drumhead 4y ago
I won't be "upgrading" to Windows 11. Once W10 support has ended I'm moving full time to Linux. I've already started the transition so I'll be more than ready when the time comes. Unnecessary changes with no benefit just show a lack of respect for the consumer and a level of arrogance I thought had been extinguished in Microsoft after the Windows 8 debacle. Clearly it hasn't.
- badpun 4y ago
  > I won't be "upgrading" to Windows 11 Interestingly, on both my laptops (2013 MBP and a 2015 Lenovo gaming laptop) Windows says that they "don't meet minimum requirements to install Windows 11". They're perfectly reasonable machines and Windows 10 runs smooth as butter on both of them, since when did Microsoft got so picky? Anyway, I'm sort of glad, because if the machines were eliglble for the Windows 11 upgrade, I'm sure MS would just go for it one night without my permission.
  - Akronymus 4y ago
    Probably missing the TPM. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Platform_Module https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Platform_Module
    - jasomill 4y ago
      Also neither have a supported[1] CPU. Though, if you really want to run Windows 11, easy workarounds[2] exist for both. For what it's worth, I'm currently running Windows 11 on a 2011 MacBook Pro — in BIOS mode, actually, because EFI support for Windows is broken on this particular model — and hardware support is no worse than it is on supported versions of Windows (meaning mostly OK except for the lack of GPU switching and precision touchpad drivers), and considerably better than it is on recent, similarly unsupported Mac OS versions (this machine — my emergency "for the rare cases where I actually need a laptop" box — is currently triple-booting Windows 11 [BIOS], macOS Monterey [EFI], and Linux [EFI]). [1] https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/minimum/supported/windows-11-supported-intel-processors https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/min... [2] https://rufus.ie/en/ https://rufus.ie/en/
willsmith72 4y ago
Between Windows and Teams, microsoft are an amazing example of what happens when you mix great tech and engineers with shocking product and UX
exodust 4y ago
> "why are there banner ads in the Start menu?" Right so a location problem. Solved by placing this content in a more appropriate place, behind a button "offers and recommendations" or similar. Turns out users don't want to be smacked in the face with a wet fish around every corner of the Windows UI. They want good IA and honestly helpful information. UX design is easy when tied to ethics. Searching for Chrome in Windows is clear intent and should return Chrome first, followed by secondary results such as "other web browsers" and EDGE might be listed first, then competitor browsers. You can favor your own product while still being helpful & accurate.
Mindwipe 4y ago
There's got to be some recognition at Microsoft that the entire Windows 11 project is being held back by the Taskbar and Start Menu UI team right? If I were an engineer on Windows and I saw every day how take up of useful improvements I'd worked on were being held back because of the ego of this team I'd be livid. At what point does senior management step in to clean house?
ufuft 4y ago
I can highly recommend classic shell. Been using it since win10 came about and it greatly improves the experience by adding a windows 7 style start menu
w4rh4wk5 4y ago
Doesn't need a user experience director to see that Windows 11 Start menu (and the lack of taskbar options) is trash.

"From December 2008 to October 2014, he led the team responsible for the redesign of the software user experience of Surface and Windows. Windows 10 was released in July 2015" Ah, the guy that brought us touch-friendly tiles. On desktop. He makes good points, though.

jmpman 4y ago

I just want the Windows 95 start menu experience. Simple. Worked. I’ve stopped using Windows because I despise the interface so much. Wasn’t a huge Mac fan, but not that I’ve figured out the quirks, I prefer Mac.

qball 4y ago
>but not that I’ve figured out the quirks, I prefer Mac And yet, Macs still need third-party software to do window management properly. Not even Monterey lets you snap windows by simply dragging them to the side of the screen, a feature both Windows and all Linux DEs have had for the past 15+ years! It's unfortunate that you now need to pay the same 10 bucks for the Rectangle equivalent on Windows (that being StartAllBack), but ultimately Windows has passed the point where it needed to sell itself as being better and easier to use and now just chases new shiny at the expense of what happens when you purposefully ignore Fitts' Law so people who want to do actual work need to pay to get the old features back. I guess that's just the way it goes sometimes.
- mwint 4y ago
  Monterey does let you snap windows by dragging them to the side of the screen.
  - qball 4y ago
    For reference, I'm expecting windowing behavior in macOS to do exactly what Windows does: when you drag a window to the boundary (edge or corner) of the screen, it should automatically resize to that half or quadrant of the screen. Monterey doesn't do this out of the box (I don't believe I'm using it wrong- even if there is an unpublished keyboard shortcut to trigger it, I don't have to use such a shortcut in any other WM), and the behavior it does have is severely lacking. For starters, you have to manually hover over the button hiding the feature to use it, and that button isn't on the edge of a window (worst-case for accessibility, per Fitts' Law). Additionally, its window-arranging features aren't capable of arranging more than 2 windows on the screen (you can't do it by quadrant like you can with other tilers), and it also puts them into full-screen mode so it both hides the menu bar and you can't easily just pull them out of the arrangement like you can with other WMs. I don't believe there are currently any plans to fix this, and that might be just as well (the term 'Sherlocked' originates from Apple for a very good reason), but the fact that it took them 15 years to come up with a half-assed version of what Windows was doing in 2006 isn't actually that great a look.
    - mwint 4y ago
      My bad, what I was seeing was the free Spectacle utility doing snap-on-drag. It’s so good I thought it was part of the system.

drumhead 4y ago

I won't be "upgrading" to Windows 11. Once W10 support has ended I'm moving full time to Linux. I've already started the transition so I'll be more than ready when the time comes. Unnecessary changes with no benefit just show a lack of respect for the consumer and a level of arrogance I thought had been extinguished in Microsoft after the Windows 8 debacle. Clearly it hasn't.

badpun 4y ago
> I won't be "upgrading" to Windows 11 Interestingly, on both my laptops (2013 MBP and a 2015 Lenovo gaming laptop) Windows says that they "don't meet minimum requirements to install Windows 11". They're perfectly reasonable machines and Windows 10 runs smooth as butter on both of them, since when did Microsoft got so picky? Anyway, I'm sort of glad, because if the machines were eliglble for the Windows 11 upgrade, I'm sure MS would just go for it one night without my permission.
- Akronymus 4y ago
  Probably missing the TPM. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Platform_Module https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Platform_Module
  - jasomill 4y ago
    Also neither have a supported[1] CPU. Though, if you really want to run Windows 11, easy workarounds[2] exist for both. For what it's worth, I'm currently running Windows 11 on a 2011 MacBook Pro — in BIOS mode, actually, because EFI support for Windows is broken on this particular model — and hardware support is no worse than it is on supported versions of Windows (meaning mostly OK except for the lack of GPU switching and precision touchpad drivers), and considerably better than it is on recent, similarly unsupported Mac OS versions (this machine — my emergency "for the rare cases where I actually need a laptop" box — is currently triple-booting Windows 11 [BIOS], macOS Monterey [EFI], and Linux [EFI]). [1] https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/minimum/supported/windows-11-supported-intel-processors https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/min... [2] https://rufus.ie/en/ https://rufus.ie/en/

willsmith72 4y ago

Between Windows and Teams, microsoft are an amazing example of what happens when you mix great tech and engineers with shocking product and UX

exodust 4y ago

> "why are there banner ads in the Start menu?" Right so a location problem. Solved by placing this content in a more appropriate place, behind a button "offers and recommendations" or similar. Turns out users don't want to be smacked in the face with a wet fish around every corner of the Windows UI. They want good IA and honestly helpful information. UX design is easy when tied to ethics. Searching for Chrome in Windows is clear intent and should return Chrome first, followed by secondary results such as "other web browsers" and EDGE might be listed first, then competitor browsers. You can favor your own product while still being helpful & accurate.

Mindwipe 4y ago

There's got to be some recognition at Microsoft that the entire Windows 11 project is being held back by the Taskbar and Start Menu UI team right? If I were an engineer on Windows and I saw every day how take up of useful improvements I'd worked on were being held back because of the ego of this team I'd be livid. At what point does senior management step in to clean house?

ufuft 4y ago

I can highly recommend classic shell. Been using it since win10 came about and it greatly improves the experience by adding a windows 7 style start menu

w4rh4wk5 4y ago

Doesn't need a user experience director to see that Windows 11 Start menu (and the lack of taskbar options) is trash.