7 ms·

Apparently flak guns are predicted to become useful again (in the sense of anti-aircraft artillery), as anti-drone weapons.

lazide 4y ago
The issue is collateral damage. Using a flak gun to take out a drone flying 20 ft over a crowds head at 120mph is going to probably do far more damage than the drone would.
- tragictrash 4y ago
  What are you talking about
  - ehnto 4y ago
    Their point I think is that drones can operate outside of the safe operation envelope of a flak canon. I don't think flak canons would be a good anti-drone defense except in really specific scenarios, and drone operators would then just not fly those scenarios.
    - tragictrash 4y ago
      I was too tired to elaborate, thank you for doing it for me.
  - beachy 4y ago
    Flak shells are designed to explode into a hail of steel fragments, in order to damage the target. Naturally a rain of steel from the sky is not good if you are standing below. Allegedly at Pearl Harbour 63 American civilians were killed by anti-aircraft shells falling on them and 34 wounded.
    - lazide 4y ago
      Yup, and the smallest typical flak shell is going to necessarily have a pretty large lethal radius as that is what would get the drone. It takes a lot less than that to blind everyone in the crowd with shrapnel or kill them, if you’re trying to shoot down the drone flying 20 ft over their heads. The smaller the kill radius, the more difficult the intercept (fundamentally) - and that’s assuming there is a safe backdrop for any non-exploded shells. These scenarios are much different than point defense at sea of a warship, or defense of the skies over a military base or city surrounded by mostly empty desert.
- registeredcorn 4y ago
  Well, if proximity detonation is an issue, there's always weapons like CIWS [1] and C-RAM [2]. I imagine there could easily be some kind of adaption made for specialized ammo. Instead of typical bullets, use some kind of very low grade concussive. The explosive wouldn't necessarily need to be an explosive, but merely just something to disrupt the air around one or two blades of the drone to force it into an unrecoverable spin. Similar to small grade concussives, I've heard some interesting defense systems use a projectile that has a kind of "mini parachute" to overwhelm target acquisition systems. I can't recall what it was in relation to. Chaff, maybe? The point is, if you could get enough small objects floating in the area, you could make it much harder for an enemy drone to maneuver within a specific area. Honestly, I think the soon-to-be hurdle would be around implementing a good jamming system against automated defenses, which would probably lead to inventing some sort of miniaturized version of current fighter planes, but built in such a way that doesn't need to account for things like G tolerance for pilots. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zsf38NYzo5Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zsf38NYzo5Q [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phpabF_5ulU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phpabF_5ulU
  - lazide 4y ago
    None of those is going to be a good idea using in a stadium, above a crowd, with buildings in the background (less than 100 yards away), etc. which are the big threat areas. Drones that can carry a couple pounds or more of C4 (which is a lot) can fly literally 10 ft above roof tops and crowds at 100+ mph while zig zagging through buildings and alleyways - fully autonomously. This isn’t theory, there are live demonstrations on YouTube.
    - CraigJPerry 4y ago
      There is no demonstration on youtube of a drone carrying a few pounds at 100mph. >> zig zagging through buildings and alleyways - fully autonomously Also never been done
      - lazide 4y ago
        Zigzagging through a forest fully autonomously (with no GPS) - there are videos on YouTube of a Swiss company doing similar. [https://youtu.be/m89bNn6RFoQ https://youtu.be/m89bNn6RFoQ] The alleyways are a simpler version [https://amp.france24.com/en/live-news/20220504-drone-swarms-can-now-fly-autonomously-through-thick-forest https://amp.france24.com/en/live-news/20220504-drone-swarms-...] Here is a YouTube video of a demonstration with a hexcopter capable of carrying 10+ lbs. [https://youtu.be/ODQT_hQsQgc https://youtu.be/ODQT_hQsQgc] And here is a dude flying a DJI Inspire (not the same as above) carrying 5 lbs. [https://youtu.be/DKr-yj68VJs https://youtu.be/DKr-yj68VJs] Folks have been using those and similar (cheaper) drones to drop Grenades on tanks in Ukraine. As the autonomous flight is harder with smaller drones (less computing payload available, worse sensors), the only reason you’re not seeing both of these parts together in urban environment is the implication (for national security). It is there.
- taneq 4y ago
  Wait, are we talking about a drone dropping grenades in a war zone or a FPV freestyler buzzing a concert crowd here?
  - cm2187 4y ago
    It was in the context of war zone but it's not a massive stretch of the imagination that sooner or later some terrorist movement will start using them. In fact I am surprised they haven't already.
    - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
      There are many thongs terrorists never did, like poisoning food supply or water supply, which exterts in yhe field agree, is very vulnerable. They seem fixated on mass shootings and bombings. Also US has automatic weapons sonce forever but 50 years ago there were no mass shootings. Fashion?
      - Firmwarrior 4y ago
        My armchair theory is that anyone smart enough to inflict horrifying damage on society is able to find a comfortable niche for themselves within it, with a very few rare exceptions. Maybe the FBI and other agencies are more effective than we give them credit for, too, and can crack down quickly on groups with a central mastermind and expendable minions carrying out attacks
        lazide 4y ago
        9/11?
        taneq 4y ago
        I came to a similar conclusion while standing in security queues at airports. There are heaps of easy ways to do dastardly airliner-related things but the people with the capacity are too nice to actually do anything like that and are all too busy anyway.
      - 4y ago
hackernewds 4y ago
Flak guns are neither as mobile nor cheap
mikewarot 4y ago
Proximity fuzes are a thing, and you've got a target that doesn't have the torque to deal with random strands of carbon fiber thrown into it propellers, it should be a fairly simple matter to make a shell that is almost nerf safe, but deadly to drones.
- JTbane 4y ago
  You probably don't even need carbon fiber, some fishing line would do it.
hcrean 4y ago
A silly-string canon is likely to be highly effective against most propeller driven drones. Safer for the people under it too.
rr888 4y ago
Yeah it did seem a waste to use SAMS to take out $400 DJI gear.

lazide 4y ago

The issue is collateral damage. Using a flak gun to take out a drone flying 20 ft over a crowds head at 120mph is going to probably do far more damage than the drone would.

tragictrash 4y ago
What are you talking about
- ehnto 4y ago
  Their point I think is that drones can operate outside of the safe operation envelope of a flak canon. I don't think flak canons would be a good anti-drone defense except in really specific scenarios, and drone operators would then just not fly those scenarios.
  - tragictrash 4y ago
    I was too tired to elaborate, thank you for doing it for me.
- beachy 4y ago
  Flak shells are designed to explode into a hail of steel fragments, in order to damage the target. Naturally a rain of steel from the sky is not good if you are standing below. Allegedly at Pearl Harbour 63 American civilians were killed by anti-aircraft shells falling on them and 34 wounded.
  - lazide 4y ago
    Yup, and the smallest typical flak shell is going to necessarily have a pretty large lethal radius as that is what would get the drone. It takes a lot less than that to blind everyone in the crowd with shrapnel or kill them, if you’re trying to shoot down the drone flying 20 ft over their heads. The smaller the kill radius, the more difficult the intercept (fundamentally) - and that’s assuming there is a safe backdrop for any non-exploded shells. These scenarios are much different than point defense at sea of a warship, or defense of the skies over a military base or city surrounded by mostly empty desert.
registeredcorn 4y ago
Well, if proximity detonation is an issue, there's always weapons like CIWS [1] and C-RAM [2]. I imagine there could easily be some kind of adaption made for specialized ammo. Instead of typical bullets, use some kind of very low grade concussive. The explosive wouldn't necessarily need to be an explosive, but merely just something to disrupt the air around one or two blades of the drone to force it into an unrecoverable spin. Similar to small grade concussives, I've heard some interesting defense systems use a projectile that has a kind of "mini parachute" to overwhelm target acquisition systems. I can't recall what it was in relation to. Chaff, maybe? The point is, if you could get enough small objects floating in the area, you could make it much harder for an enemy drone to maneuver within a specific area. Honestly, I think the soon-to-be hurdle would be around implementing a good jamming system against automated defenses, which would probably lead to inventing some sort of miniaturized version of current fighter planes, but built in such a way that doesn't need to account for things like G tolerance for pilots. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zsf38NYzo5Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zsf38NYzo5Q [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phpabF_5ulU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phpabF_5ulU
- lazide 4y ago
  None of those is going to be a good idea using in a stadium, above a crowd, with buildings in the background (less than 100 yards away), etc. which are the big threat areas. Drones that can carry a couple pounds or more of C4 (which is a lot) can fly literally 10 ft above roof tops and crowds at 100+ mph while zig zagging through buildings and alleyways - fully autonomously. This isn’t theory, there are live demonstrations on YouTube.
  - CraigJPerry 4y ago
    There is no demonstration on youtube of a drone carrying a few pounds at 100mph. >> zig zagging through buildings and alleyways - fully autonomously Also never been done
    - lazide 4y ago
      Zigzagging through a forest fully autonomously (with no GPS) - there are videos on YouTube of a Swiss company doing similar. [https://youtu.be/m89bNn6RFoQ https://youtu.be/m89bNn6RFoQ] The alleyways are a simpler version [https://amp.france24.com/en/live-news/20220504-drone-swarms-can-now-fly-autonomously-through-thick-forest https://amp.france24.com/en/live-news/20220504-drone-swarms-...] Here is a YouTube video of a demonstration with a hexcopter capable of carrying 10+ lbs. [https://youtu.be/ODQT_hQsQgc https://youtu.be/ODQT_hQsQgc] And here is a dude flying a DJI Inspire (not the same as above) carrying 5 lbs. [https://youtu.be/DKr-yj68VJs https://youtu.be/DKr-yj68VJs] Folks have been using those and similar (cheaper) drones to drop Grenades on tanks in Ukraine. As the autonomous flight is harder with smaller drones (less computing payload available, worse sensors), the only reason you’re not seeing both of these parts together in urban environment is the implication (for national security). It is there.
taneq 4y ago
Wait, are we talking about a drone dropping grenades in a war zone or a FPV freestyler buzzing a concert crowd here?
- cm2187 4y ago
  It was in the context of war zone but it's not a massive stretch of the imagination that sooner or later some terrorist movement will start using them. In fact I am surprised they haven't already.
  - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
    There are many thongs terrorists never did, like poisoning food supply or water supply, which exterts in yhe field agree, is very vulnerable. They seem fixated on mass shootings and bombings. Also US has automatic weapons sonce forever but 50 years ago there were no mass shootings. Fashion?
    - Firmwarrior 4y ago
      My armchair theory is that anyone smart enough to inflict horrifying damage on society is able to find a comfortable niche for themselves within it, with a very few rare exceptions. Maybe the FBI and other agencies are more effective than we give them credit for, too, and can crack down quickly on groups with a central mastermind and expendable minions carrying out attacks
      - lazide 4y ago
        9/11?
      - taneq 4y ago
        I came to a similar conclusion while standing in security queues at airports. There are heaps of easy ways to do dastardly airliner-related things but the people with the capacity are too nice to actually do anything like that and are all too busy anyway.
    - 4y ago

hackernewds 4y ago

Flak guns are neither as mobile nor cheap

mikewarot 4y ago

Proximity fuzes are a thing, and you've got a target that doesn't have the torque to deal with random strands of carbon fiber thrown into it propellers, it should be a fairly simple matter to make a shell that is almost nerf safe, but deadly to drones.

JTbane 4y ago
You probably don't even need carbon fiber, some fishing line would do it.

hcrean 4y ago

A silly-string canon is likely to be highly effective against most propeller driven drones. Safer for the people under it too.

rr888 4y ago

Yeah it did seem a waste to use SAMS to take out $400 DJI gear.