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It may surprise you that my very high scale employer in addition to having no architects also has no devops. It has instead an infrastructure group that ships a

It may surprise you that my very high scale employer in addition to having no architects also has no devops. It has instead an infrastructure group that ships a PaaS. Engineers click their own buttons on the PaaS. Only if things have gone very wrong would you end up talking to or having actions taken on your services by the PaaS owners. Now obviously to design such a PaaS successfully you should know a thing or two about ops, but the outcome of that expertise is a reusable software platform, not per-product (or worse, per-release) labor.

P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
If you have developers doing everything I don't buy the scale claim.
- closeparen 4y ago
  I don't know what to tell you without de-anonymizing myself on the internet. It's a household name that you've probably used. Again, it is not that product engineers are "doing everything" - the road is paved by a very large platform org - but they just build the road, we have to drive on it.
  - P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
    I don't doubt their title is developer, what I doubt is that their primary function isn't devops, etc.
    - closeparen 4y ago
      >I don't doubt their title is developer, I don't know any companies that use that word. Normally we are called software engineers. Amazon is the closest, with "software development engineer." Nor do we use the word devops. Which is funny, because as I understand it, software engineers working on infrastructure automation in the same way that that we work on products are the closest thing to what "devops" envisions. The companies that are doing it don't use the word, and the companies that use the word are the most incredulous that anyone could be getting by without dev and (dev)ops as substantively separate roles. It would be almost as if the people who most liked to talk about Agile were the ones most invested in very long range estimation and planning. Oh wait..
      - P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
        So then concentrate on the idea behind the word and stop wasting peoples time.

P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago

If you have developers doing everything I don't buy the scale claim.

closeparen 4y ago
I don't know what to tell you without de-anonymizing myself on the internet. It's a household name that you've probably used. Again, it is not that product engineers are "doing everything" - the road is paved by a very large platform org - but they just build the road, we have to drive on it.
- P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
  I don't doubt their title is developer, what I doubt is that their primary function isn't devops, etc.
  - closeparen 4y ago
    >I don't doubt their title is developer, I don't know any companies that use that word. Normally we are called software engineers. Amazon is the closest, with "software development engineer." Nor do we use the word devops. Which is funny, because as I understand it, software engineers working on infrastructure automation in the same way that that we work on products are the closest thing to what "devops" envisions. The companies that are doing it don't use the word, and the companies that use the word are the most incredulous that anyone could be getting by without dev and (dev)ops as substantively separate roles. It would be almost as if the people who most liked to talk about Agile were the ones most invested in very long range estimation and planning. Oh wait..
    - P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
      So then concentrate on the idea behind the word and stop wasting peoples time.