8 ms·

RIP Gorbachev, one of the few genuinely good people in politics. After he retired from politics, he was featured in several advertisements: - In 1994 for Appl

by eloy 4y ago

RIP Gorbachev, one of the few genuinely good people in politics. After he retired from politics, he was featured in several advertisements: - In 1994 for Apple Computer: https://www.upi.com/Archives/1994/10/07/The-first-advertisement-to-feature-Mikhail-Gorbachev-will-also/1663781502400/ https://www.upi.com/Archives/1994/10/07/The-first-advertisem... - In 1998 for Pizza Hut: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorbachev_Pizza_Hut_commercial https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorbachev_Pizza_Hut_commercial - In 2000 for the ÖBB, the Austrian railways: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLscz8kEg6c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLscz8kEg6c - In 2007 for Louis Vuitton: https://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/05/business/media/05vuitton.html https://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/05/business/media/05vuitton....

djvdq 4y ago
Gorbachev good? You think sending tanks to Lithuania to kill people is what good person does? Or hiding everything about Chernobyl and not telling people what happened is also good person best move?
mortenjorck 4y ago
Personally, I try to avoid characterizing anyone in politics as a "genuinely good person" or otherwise. I don't think it's a useful framing. As humans, we gravitate toward personalities, identities, and stories, and these all matter for the people we keep close to us. In the public sphere, however, actions and legacy are what matter, for better or worse. For a major historical figure like Gorbachev, there is bound to be both better and worse, and to me the most valuable analysis is of those actions and legacy rather than personal character.
- _8j50 4y ago
  I think sincerity is a better measure. As leaders go, he is one of the lasts of his kind. He was 14 when the war ended. “Our generation is the generation of wartime children,” he said. “It has burned us, leaving its mark both on our characters and on our view of the world.” -- Quote from the WAPO article on this.
jtjbdhsjjdnd 4y ago
For the West he was a hero, for the Russians he was a disaster https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/Russia/Death_rate/ https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/Russia/Death_rate/ . I don't blame Gorbachev for this. Just as in the case of Nikolai II Russian totalitarian state and lack of checks and balances washed out an inept person to rule the country.
- koheripbal 4y ago
  The communist system is responsible for that, not Gorbachev. Centralized gov't controlled economies create corruption which results in ultimate economic collapse.
  - jtjbdhsjjdnd 4y ago
    I partially wanted to express it with "totalitarian state and lack of checks and balances". However, I slightly disagree. Being an authoritarian ruler, Gorbachev had lots of power. It is proven by the fact that his reforms were radical and unsuccessful, and many of the problems that the Soviet union faced during its demise were exacerbated by them. Of course, the Soviet Union was to suffer some losses but they could have been milder. But may be you are 100% correct. I don't feel knowledgeable enough on the topic of late Soviet union to argue.
  - brnt 4y ago
    All governments create corruption; centalized systems just have zero checks and balances.
    - vintermann 4y ago
      "Checks and balances" mean nothing unless you specify who's checking who. System where the military keeps a check on the president, or the king keeps a check on parliament, aren't really much better than the "checker" being in charge all the time. And systems based on mutual checking tend to just reel from one constitutional crisis to another.
      - 4y ago
rkagerer 4y ago
Anyone have a link to a picture of the Apple ad?
- eloy 4y ago
  I wish I had it! I think I would have to travel to some physical German archive to lookup old magazines... Or maybe Apple itself has the original digital version in their archives.
  - IntelMiner 4y ago
    Apple has DMCA'd people for hosting copies of their own ads as a hobbyist historical record https://9to5mac.com/2020/01/27/the-unofficial-apple-archive/ https://9to5mac.com/2020/01/27/the-unofficial-apple-archive/ Their Orwellian revision of their own history in the endless treadmill of the "one more thing" I'd be surprised if they truly have any of it still "We have always been at war with x86"
- T-A 4y ago
  https://brand-history.com/apple-computer-international/apple/apple-michail-gorbatschow-man-ist-entweder-teil-der-losung-oder-teil-des-problems-ich-habe-mich-fur-ersteres-entschieden-es-gibt-nicht-viele https://brand-history.com/apple-computer-international/apple...
  - awiesenhofer 4y ago
    Such a great site! Thanks for this!
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
hypersoar 4y ago
I saw that Pizza Hut commercial earlier today and I can't stop thinking about it. It has so much going on. It's the victory of capitalism over Soviet communism, the rise of neoliberalism to global hegemony, and the "End of History" in the form of a 30-second ad for pizza.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- agumonkey 4y ago
  That is indeed a loaded symbol
- qikInNdOutReply 4y ago
  It was also the start of the rush to full neo feudalism. Many conflate capitalism (oppossed) with what we had after the USSR got weak capitalism(unopossed). Turns out the remarkable archievments happen with systemic competition.
- T-zex 4y ago
  Gorbachev saw Pizza Hut come and leave his country.
  - cpursley 4y ago
    For the best, Dodo pizza is much better. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodo_Pizza https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodo_Pizza ^ Russian politics aside, Dodo has some impressive tech and processes.
krn 4y ago
He also did a cameo in Faraway, So Close! (1993)[1] by Wim Wenders: > Mikhail Gorbachev only appears because his secretary was familiar with the movies of Wim Wenders and was a great admirer. She talked Gorbachev into giving up a couple of hours to do the cameo as he was on a trip to Germany anyway. [1] https://imdb.com/title/tt0107209/mediaviewer/rm1602489600 https://imdb.com/title/tt0107209/mediaviewer/rm1602489600
jakuboboza 4y ago
Good ? What about sending tanks against Lithuanians and you know...killing people. How good is this ? 700+ injured and 14 dead doesnt sound like something "genuinely good person" does. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_Events_(Lithuania) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_Events_(Lithuania)
- ironcurtain 4y ago
  - qsort 4y ago
    > War of Northern Aggression Rarely if ever I criticize naming conventions, but this definitely does seem the right moment to do so.
    - least 4y ago
      If you are to suppose that the Confederate States of America were a legitimate, sovereign government of the Southern states, the term "War of Northern Aggression" makes more sense. They did not threaten to secede from the United States, they did secede from it. The United States taking action to take back control of the southern states could be viewed as "Northern Aggression." Granted, it is a little odd considering that the Battle of Fort Sumter was initiated by the Confederates, though you could argue that attempting to resupply United States troops in Confederate territory as an act of aggression from the United States. In either case, the argument seems to be that Gorbachev being responsible for the death of many lives doesn't discredit the notion that he could be a "genuinely good person" since there examples of people that have been responsible for the death of many that are generally viewed favorably, such as Lincoln.
      - notahacker 4y ago
        It doesn't really make sense in that context. The Thirteen Colonies seceded from Great Britain, something not in dispute even in the UK. Great Britain sent troops into the United States to oppose the secession. But it's not referred to as "the War of British Aggression". The only sense that singling out "Northern Aggression" makes sense in is perpetuating the myth that the slaveowners were the real victims.
DocTomoe 4y ago
"Shook hands with both Ronalds, Reagan and McDonalds..." [1] [1] https://youtu.be/ZT2z0nrsQ8o?t=103 https://youtu.be/ZT2z0nrsQ8o?t=103
blackhaz 4y ago
Supported the annexation of Crimea. Organized highly corrupt privatization of Soviet Union assets. Robbed Soviet working class of their pensions. Handled Chernobyl by throwing people into the furnace and withholding information. Not sure where you were back in the 80s, but he is one of the etalons of a horrible, corrupt politician.

by eloy 4y ago

djvdq 4y ago

Gorbachev good? You think sending tanks to Lithuania to kill people is what good person does? Or hiding everything about Chernobyl and not telling people what happened is also good person best move?

mortenjorck 4y ago

Personally, I try to avoid characterizing anyone in politics as a "genuinely good person" or otherwise. I don't think it's a useful framing. As humans, we gravitate toward personalities, identities, and stories, and these all matter for the people we keep close to us. In the public sphere, however, actions and legacy are what matter, for better or worse. For a major historical figure like Gorbachev, there is bound to be both better and worse, and to me the most valuable analysis is of those actions and legacy rather than personal character.

_8j50 4y ago
I think sincerity is a better measure. As leaders go, he is one of the lasts of his kind. He was 14 when the war ended. “Our generation is the generation of wartime children,” he said. “It has burned us, leaving its mark both on our characters and on our view of the world.” -- Quote from the WAPO article on this.

jtjbdhsjjdnd 4y ago

For the West he was a hero, for the Russians he was a disaster https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/Russia/Death_rate/ https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/Russia/Death_rate/ . I don't blame Gorbachev for this. Just as in the case of Nikolai II Russian totalitarian state and lack of checks and balances washed out an inept person to rule the country.

koheripbal 4y ago
The communist system is responsible for that, not Gorbachev. Centralized gov't controlled economies create corruption which results in ultimate economic collapse.
- jtjbdhsjjdnd 4y ago
  I partially wanted to express it with "totalitarian state and lack of checks and balances". However, I slightly disagree. Being an authoritarian ruler, Gorbachev had lots of power. It is proven by the fact that his reforms were radical and unsuccessful, and many of the problems that the Soviet union faced during its demise were exacerbated by them. Of course, the Soviet Union was to suffer some losses but they could have been milder. But may be you are 100% correct. I don't feel knowledgeable enough on the topic of late Soviet union to argue.
- brnt 4y ago
  All governments create corruption; centalized systems just have zero checks and balances.
  - vintermann 4y ago
    "Checks and balances" mean nothing unless you specify who's checking who. System where the military keeps a check on the president, or the king keeps a check on parliament, aren't really much better than the "checker" being in charge all the time. And systems based on mutual checking tend to just reel from one constitutional crisis to another.
    - 4y ago

rkagerer 4y ago

Anyone have a link to a picture of the Apple ad?

eloy 4y ago
I wish I had it! I think I would have to travel to some physical German archive to lookup old magazines... Or maybe Apple itself has the original digital version in their archives.
- IntelMiner 4y ago
  Apple has DMCA'd people for hosting copies of their own ads as a hobbyist historical record https://9to5mac.com/2020/01/27/the-unofficial-apple-archive/ https://9to5mac.com/2020/01/27/the-unofficial-apple-archive/ Their Orwellian revision of their own history in the endless treadmill of the "one more thing" I'd be surprised if they truly have any of it still "We have always been at war with x86"
T-A 4y ago
https://brand-history.com/apple-computer-international/apple/apple-michail-gorbatschow-man-ist-entweder-teil-der-losung-oder-teil-des-problems-ich-habe-mich-fur-ersteres-entschieden-es-gibt-nicht-viele https://brand-history.com/apple-computer-international/apple...
- awiesenhofer 4y ago
  Such a great site! Thanks for this!
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

hypersoar 4y ago

I saw that Pizza Hut commercial earlier today and I can't stop thinking about it. It has so much going on. It's the victory of capitalism over Soviet communism, the rise of neoliberalism to global hegemony, and the "End of History" in the form of a 30-second ad for pizza.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
agumonkey 4y ago
That is indeed a loaded symbol
qikInNdOutReply 4y ago
It was also the start of the rush to full neo feudalism. Many conflate capitalism (oppossed) with what we had after the USSR got weak capitalism(unopossed). Turns out the remarkable archievments happen with systemic competition.
T-zex 4y ago
Gorbachev saw Pizza Hut come and leave his country.
- cpursley 4y ago
  For the best, Dodo pizza is much better. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodo_Pizza https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodo_Pizza ^ Russian politics aside, Dodo has some impressive tech and processes.

krn 4y ago

He also did a cameo in Faraway, So Close! (1993)[1] by Wim Wenders: > Mikhail Gorbachev only appears because his secretary was familiar with the movies of Wim Wenders and was a great admirer. She talked Gorbachev into giving up a couple of hours to do the cameo as he was on a trip to Germany anyway. [1] https://imdb.com/title/tt0107209/mediaviewer/rm1602489600 https://imdb.com/title/tt0107209/mediaviewer/rm1602489600

jakuboboza 4y ago

Good ? What about sending tanks against Lithuanians and you know...killing people. How good is this ? 700+ injured and 14 dead doesnt sound like something "genuinely good person" does. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_Events_(Lithuania) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_Events_(Lithuania)

ironcurtain 4y ago
- qsort 4y ago
  > War of Northern Aggression Rarely if ever I criticize naming conventions, but this definitely does seem the right moment to do so.
  - least 4y ago
    If you are to suppose that the Confederate States of America were a legitimate, sovereign government of the Southern states, the term "War of Northern Aggression" makes more sense. They did not threaten to secede from the United States, they did secede from it. The United States taking action to take back control of the southern states could be viewed as "Northern Aggression." Granted, it is a little odd considering that the Battle of Fort Sumter was initiated by the Confederates, though you could argue that attempting to resupply United States troops in Confederate territory as an act of aggression from the United States. In either case, the argument seems to be that Gorbachev being responsible for the death of many lives doesn't discredit the notion that he could be a "genuinely good person" since there examples of people that have been responsible for the death of many that are generally viewed favorably, such as Lincoln.
    - notahacker 4y ago
      It doesn't really make sense in that context. The Thirteen Colonies seceded from Great Britain, something not in dispute even in the UK. Great Britain sent troops into the United States to oppose the secession. But it's not referred to as "the War of British Aggression". The only sense that singling out "Northern Aggression" makes sense in is perpetuating the myth that the slaveowners were the real victims.

DocTomoe 4y ago

"Shook hands with both Ronalds, Reagan and McDonalds..." [1] [1] https://youtu.be/ZT2z0nrsQ8o?t=103 https://youtu.be/ZT2z0nrsQ8o?t=103

blackhaz 4y ago

Supported the annexation of Crimea. Organized highly corrupt privatization of Soviet Union assets. Robbed Soviet working class of their pensions. Handled Chernobyl by throwing people into the furnace and withholding information. Not sure where you were back in the 80s, but he is one of the etalons of a horrible, corrupt politician.