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> The productivity that a handful of good smalltalkers can achieve to solve complex systems is off the charts. You could say that of any experts in any system.

> The productivity that a handful of good smalltalkers can achieve to solve complex systems is off the charts. You could say that of any experts in any system. They will be extremely productive. There is really nothing special about Smalltalk that makes its developers automatically more productive (especially not the IDE, which is vastly outclassed today by the likes of IDEA, XCode, and Visual Studio).

sebastianconcpt 4y ago
Sounds you're asking for an old-school good team competition.
pjmlp 4y ago
If only the likes of IDEA, XCode, and Visual Studio were able to do hot-reload and REPL based development like Smalltalk was doing in the mid-80's. But no, the occasional oops need to rebuild the world, still happens.
- Rochus 4y ago
  Depending what you (incidentally) change in Smalltalk you also have to recompile all methods.
  - sebastianconcpt 4y ago
    Being fair, that's not a typical need with code at application level.
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    Indeed, however that is transparent to the user, the current IDE experience would be similar to getting out of Smalltalk and restarting it from scratch.
- hota_mazi 4y ago
  These IDE's have been able to do this for 20+ years. And they also do so much more than the rrb.
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    Do they haven't, not at the level that Smalltalk does it. To affirm otherwise only reveals lack of experience on the matter. No Smalltalk environment has ever shown an error message about not being able to do edit-continue/hot-reload/whatever.... after doing a code change in a debug session. Nor are they capable of transparently exposing their internal structures in the debugging session.
  - sebastianconcpt 4y ago
    Can you halt and open an interactive debugger in a green thread in a running production node that you can correct a method and let that thread continue running after that with these? Without interrupting any other thread of that node of course?
    - hota_mazi 4y ago
      Yes and yes. On the JVM and .net. Has been feasible for a while. It's also something that you should probably never do, so not really that useful or worth considering as a major advantage.
      - pjmlp 4y ago
        On the JVM only if you buy JRebel and even then there are situations where it doesn't work. https://www.jrebel.com/blog/limitations-of-hotswap https://www.jrebel.com/blog/limitations-of-hotswap https://www.jrebel.com/learn/does-jrebel-support-my-framework https://www.jrebel.com/learn/does-jrebel-support-my-framewor... On the .NET, I will let Microsoft's own words speak for itself, https://devblogs.microsoft.com/dotnet/introducing-net-hot-reload/ https://devblogs.microsoft.com/dotnet/introducing-net-hot-re... > No matter how you use .NET Hot Reload please be aware that some changes are not supported at runtime and will prompt you with a rude edit dialog and require you to restart your app in order to apply. We’re still working on the feature and the documentation to detail what edits are supported. For now, start by reviewing our existing list of Edit and Continue (EnC) equivalent capabilities. Since Hot Reload is powered by EnC this will give you a good starting point for better understanding this new feature. For details see: EnC documentation. In Smalltalk environments since the early 80's, it always works, there are no buts and ifs, or extra products to install. As mentioned on another replies, it only shows you never used Smalltalk in production.

sebastianconcpt 4y ago

Sounds you're asking for an old-school good team competition.

pjmlp 4y ago

If only the likes of IDEA, XCode, and Visual Studio were able to do hot-reload and REPL based development like Smalltalk was doing in the mid-80's. But no, the occasional oops need to rebuild the world, still happens.

Rochus 4y ago
Depending what you (incidentally) change in Smalltalk you also have to recompile all methods.
- sebastianconcpt 4y ago
  Being fair, that's not a typical need with code at application level.
- pjmlp 4y ago
  Indeed, however that is transparent to the user, the current IDE experience would be similar to getting out of Smalltalk and restarting it from scratch.
hota_mazi 4y ago
These IDE's have been able to do this for 20+ years. And they also do so much more than the rrb.
- pjmlp 4y ago
  Do they haven't, not at the level that Smalltalk does it. To affirm otherwise only reveals lack of experience on the matter. No Smalltalk environment has ever shown an error message about not being able to do edit-continue/hot-reload/whatever.... after doing a code change in a debug session. Nor are they capable of transparently exposing their internal structures in the debugging session.
- sebastianconcpt 4y ago
  Can you halt and open an interactive debugger in a green thread in a running production node that you can correct a method and let that thread continue running after that with these? Without interrupting any other thread of that node of course?
  - hota_mazi 4y ago
    Yes and yes. On the JVM and .net. Has been feasible for a while. It's also something that you should probably never do, so not really that useful or worth considering as a major advantage.
    - pjmlp 4y ago
      On the JVM only if you buy JRebel and even then there are situations where it doesn't work. https://www.jrebel.com/blog/limitations-of-hotswap https://www.jrebel.com/blog/limitations-of-hotswap https://www.jrebel.com/learn/does-jrebel-support-my-framework https://www.jrebel.com/learn/does-jrebel-support-my-framewor... On the .NET, I will let Microsoft's own words speak for itself, https://devblogs.microsoft.com/dotnet/introducing-net-hot-reload/ https://devblogs.microsoft.com/dotnet/introducing-net-hot-re... > No matter how you use .NET Hot Reload please be aware that some changes are not supported at runtime and will prompt you with a rude edit dialog and require you to restart your app in order to apply. We’re still working on the feature and the documentation to detail what edits are supported. For now, start by reviewing our existing list of Edit and Continue (EnC) equivalent capabilities. Since Hot Reload is powered by EnC this will give you a good starting point for better understanding this new feature. For details see: EnC documentation. In Smalltalk environments since the early 80's, it always works, there are no buts and ifs, or extra products to install. As mentioned on another replies, it only shows you never used Smalltalk in production.