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yes, objective. bodies (i.e., independent beings) are required to invoke bodily autonomy, which brings with it the direct corrollary that non-bodies cannot invo

yes, objective. bodies (i.e., independent beings) are required to invoke bodily autonomy, which brings with it the direct corrollary that non-bodies cannot invoke bodily autonomy. that's rational and objective, as in, it's beyond culture, beyond 'taste', towards 'truth'. you countered with a subjective opinion hanging off an ultimately irrelevant legal triviality (that's also cultural, not objective).

svieira 4y ago
The child in-utero is most certainly an independent being (or else the mother is not unless she's living in a universe she created herself ex nihilo). Is there some way to define "independent" that isn't driven entirely by subjective desires for one outcome or the other? Or must we leave bodily autonomy as being too subjective a principle?
- clairity 4y ago
  a clump of fetal cells is the textbook definition of dependent and inseparable. you're otherwise projecting what they might become if everything goes well, not objectively perceiving what they are in the present. if we projected every human that way, we're all dead, and therefore worthless. neither our subjective nor objective experience of those cells today is equivalent to that of any human being around us. you just can't get to the conclusion you want with only biology and objectivity, because your key premise is neither an objective nor a biological axiom.
  - svieira 4y ago
    A zygote is most certainly independent of the mother in the sense that the child and the mother are distinct members of the species. The child is not a part of the mother, but an independent (distinct) entity. The mother and child are distinguishable by biologists, by information theorists, by Thomistic philosophers, and by nutritionists in the south of France. The child is most certainly dependent on the mother in the sense that this distinct, independent member of the species Homo sapiens cannot survive without constant support from the environment (another living person) that the child finds themselves dependent on. They are, as you point out, inseparable. But even birth won't solve this problem. From a societal perspective, even adulthood won't solve this problem for 99.999% of the human race.

svieira 4y ago

The child in-utero is most certainly an independent being (or else the mother is not unless she's living in a universe she created herself ex nihilo). Is there some way to define "independent" that isn't driven entirely by subjective desires for one outcome or the other? Or must we leave bodily autonomy as being too subjective a principle?

clairity 4y ago
a clump of fetal cells is the textbook definition of dependent and inseparable. you're otherwise projecting what they might become if everything goes well, not objectively perceiving what they are in the present. if we projected every human that way, we're all dead, and therefore worthless. neither our subjective nor objective experience of those cells today is equivalent to that of any human being around us. you just can't get to the conclusion you want with only biology and objectivity, because your key premise is neither an objective nor a biological axiom.
- svieira 4y ago
  A zygote is most certainly independent of the mother in the sense that the child and the mother are distinct members of the species. The child is not a part of the mother, but an independent (distinct) entity. The mother and child are distinguishable by biologists, by information theorists, by Thomistic philosophers, and by nutritionists in the south of France. The child is most certainly dependent on the mother in the sense that this distinct, independent member of the species Homo sapiens cannot survive without constant support from the environment (another living person) that the child finds themselves dependent on. They are, as you point out, inseparable. But even birth won't solve this problem. From a societal perspective, even adulthood won't solve this problem for 99.999% of the human race.