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> no matter how many smart people you hire, and how many nice frameworks are used - if the organization and processes are not in order, you will keep losing tim

> no matter how many smart people you hire, and how many nice frameworks are used - if the organization and processes are not in order, you will keep losing time and money. I disagree. In my experience hiring the right people limits the need for organization and process. Obviously you can't eliminate those completely but if you hire the right people your org will generally succeed in spite of a lack of organization and process. I find the larger problem is how most engineers define "smart people" - they typically only mean someone with a high technical aptitude when really things like communication skills, collaboration, motivation, etc. are better indicators success on a software team.

tetek 4y ago
You are not wrong, my experience comes from what I think might be a niche. A startup doing both hardware and software, and does so with an offshore team. For 'simple' systems, Systems Engineer is not needed. Typically Software Engineers share architectural responsibilities. I recommend listening to this https://youtu.be/pSfZutP9H-U?t=386 https://youtu.be/pSfZutP9H-U?t=386 from 6:30 to 10min. I find it very valuable. > I find the larger problem is how most engineers define "smart people" - they typically only mean someone with a high technical aptitude when really things like communication skills, collaboration, motivation, etc. are better indicators success on a software team. I agree 100%.
Cwizard 4y ago
Yes but if you hire a lot of smart people and then have a process where they cannot make any decisions but instead someone from sales decides every little thing you will still not get anywhere regardless of how many smart people you have. But I agree if you have a lot of smart people you can go for a lean process, and let everyone mostly guide themselves. But you do have to provide that freedom.
spaetzleesser 4y ago
Exactly. There is a difference between "right people" and "smart people". The right people are usually smart but smart people aren't always right for the team. If you have the right people you don't much process or organization imposed from top. They will organize themselves.
P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
I disagree somewhat, "smart people" really means "people who agree with me". Most technical people view disagreement as a negative for the person doing the disagreeing, I've seen it play out too many times over my career.
felideon 4y ago
> Obviously you can't eliminate those completely but if you hire the right people your org will generally succeed in spite of a lack of organization and process. This is true. I like Marty Cagan's take on it in his article "Scaling with Process vs. People"[1] [1] https://www.svpg.com/scaling-with-process-vs-people/ https://www.svpg.com/scaling-with-process-vs-people/
- CSMastermind 4y ago
  Oh that's a great link I hadn't seen before, thanks for sharing.
schainks 4y ago
Below team/product of size/complexity X, this holds true. Above it, your smart people are drowning and chaos ensues. Netflix has a presentation about this somewhere...

tetek 4y ago

You are not wrong, my experience comes from what I think might be a niche. A startup doing both hardware and software, and does so with an offshore team. For 'simple' systems, Systems Engineer is not needed. Typically Software Engineers share architectural responsibilities. I recommend listening to this https://youtu.be/pSfZutP9H-U?t=386 https://youtu.be/pSfZutP9H-U?t=386 from 6:30 to 10min. I find it very valuable. > I find the larger problem is how most engineers define "smart people" - they typically only mean someone with a high technical aptitude when really things like communication skills, collaboration, motivation, etc. are better indicators success on a software team. I agree 100%.

Cwizard 4y ago

Yes but if you hire a lot of smart people and then have a process where they cannot make any decisions but instead someone from sales decides every little thing you will still not get anywhere regardless of how many smart people you have. But I agree if you have a lot of smart people you can go for a lean process, and let everyone mostly guide themselves. But you do have to provide that freedom.

spaetzleesser 4y ago

Exactly. There is a difference between "right people" and "smart people". The right people are usually smart but smart people aren't always right for the team. If you have the right people you don't much process or organization imposed from top. They will organize themselves.

P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago

I disagree somewhat, "smart people" really means "people who agree with me". Most technical people view disagreement as a negative for the person doing the disagreeing, I've seen it play out too many times over my career.

felideon 4y ago

> Obviously you can't eliminate those completely but if you hire the right people your org will generally succeed in spite of a lack of organization and process. This is true. I like Marty Cagan's take on it in his article "Scaling with Process vs. People"[1] [1] https://www.svpg.com/scaling-with-process-vs-people/ https://www.svpg.com/scaling-with-process-vs-people/

CSMastermind 4y ago
Oh that's a great link I hadn't seen before, thanks for sharing.

schainks 4y ago

Below team/product of size/complexity X, this holds true. Above it, your smart people are drowning and chaos ensues. Netflix has a presentation about this somewhere...