4 ms·

I didn't sign up to discuss this, but I'm very careful with people that have only started claiming to care about women's sports after this became a culture war

I didn't sign up to discuss this, but I'm very careful with people that have only started claiming to care about women's sports after this became a culture war issue. There are a lot of armchair takes that are obviously misinformed about the mechanics of HRT, and a lot of ignoring that most contact sports are already grouped into weight classes exactly because gender is a bad discriminator. I would be in favor of sporting bodies deciding these things on a discipline-by-discipline basis, but at this point christian conservative think tanks (like the ADF) became involved and it has all just turned into such a shitshow that I don't trust anyone in these bodies to be impartial anymore either. If you're interested in a nuanced discussion, may I recommend Mia Mulder[1]? I promise, it's not a straight up arguing for one side exclusively video essay. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdT1PvJDRo4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdT1PvJDRo4

hirundo 4y ago
I would be much more supportive if the biological differences were included along with the weight class, such that a lighter person with testosterone muscles and bones fights a heavier person with estrogen muscles and bones. That is, where the competitors are competitive. But the current ideological environment resists the inclusion of such sex-based factors, on the absurd premise that they are trivial.
- sascha_sl 4y ago
  Are you sure this isn't just an assumption you're making based on your "ideological environment"? How do you know? Have you done the research? Do you actually know if someone who has replaced their testosterone with estrogen retains their "testosterone muscles"? Spoiler: It's complicated, in no way straight forward, and if you descend into the ugly guts of it you'll learn that sports were never fair to begin with, and that we'd need better bracketing systems even if trans people didn't exist to have any semblance of "individual effort" determining outcomes in sports.
  - hirundo 4y ago
    > Are you sure this isn't just an assumption you're making based on your "ideological environment"? How do you know? Have you done the research? I feel that I have direct relevent expertise ... having wrestled many boys and girls my age growing up. There was at least one girl who could and did kick my ass. But there were lots of boys I couldn't beat. It doesn't take a biologist to make this unsubtle observation. Boys in general are considerably advantaged over girls in any kind of brawl. An environment that doesn't allow a person to learn this growing up is too safe.
    - sascha_sl 4y ago
      Now you're talking about the distribution in cis people, but you haven't accounted for HRT. Hormones are an immensely important part of sexual dimorphism, so much so that people with an XY chromosome and complete testosterone insensitivity (CAIS) usually only find out they're not XX in their teens when they visit their Gynecologist about lacking periods. It is very hard to maintain "excess" muscle on feminizing HRT (the body has different muscle to fat target ratios depending on hormones), and impossible to (re)build it. Someone would have to work disproportionately hard on maintaining most of their "male advantage" a year in. I'm not an athlete, but every trans person you ask will tell you that the difference in strength is quite significant. Even if I can just tell from being unable to open jars. That aside, I really recommend you invest time into that essay. It's an interesting tale about why we have segregated sports to begin with (believe it or not, women doing sports is a relatively recent thing) and how trans people really aren't the biggest interference to the unfairness of it all.

hirundo 4y ago

I would be much more supportive if the biological differences were included along with the weight class, such that a lighter person with testosterone muscles and bones fights a heavier person with estrogen muscles and bones. That is, where the competitors are competitive. But the current ideological environment resists the inclusion of such sex-based factors, on the absurd premise that they are trivial.

sascha_sl 4y ago
Are you sure this isn't just an assumption you're making based on your "ideological environment"? How do you know? Have you done the research? Do you actually know if someone who has replaced their testosterone with estrogen retains their "testosterone muscles"? Spoiler: It's complicated, in no way straight forward, and if you descend into the ugly guts of it you'll learn that sports were never fair to begin with, and that we'd need better bracketing systems even if trans people didn't exist to have any semblance of "individual effort" determining outcomes in sports.
- hirundo 4y ago
  > Are you sure this isn't just an assumption you're making based on your "ideological environment"? How do you know? Have you done the research? I feel that I have direct relevent expertise ... having wrestled many boys and girls my age growing up. There was at least one girl who could and did kick my ass. But there were lots of boys I couldn't beat. It doesn't take a biologist to make this unsubtle observation. Boys in general are considerably advantaged over girls in any kind of brawl. An environment that doesn't allow a person to learn this growing up is too safe.
  - sascha_sl 4y ago
    Now you're talking about the distribution in cis people, but you haven't accounted for HRT. Hormones are an immensely important part of sexual dimorphism, so much so that people with an XY chromosome and complete testosterone insensitivity (CAIS) usually only find out they're not XX in their teens when they visit their Gynecologist about lacking periods. It is very hard to maintain "excess" muscle on feminizing HRT (the body has different muscle to fat target ratios depending on hormones), and impossible to (re)build it. Someone would have to work disproportionately hard on maintaining most of their "male advantage" a year in. I'm not an athlete, but every trans person you ask will tell you that the difference in strength is quite significant. Even if I can just tell from being unable to open jars. That aside, I really recommend you invest time into that essay. It's an interesting tale about why we have segregated sports to begin with (believe it or not, women doing sports is a relatively recent thing) and how trans people really aren't the biggest interference to the unfairness of it all.