2 ms·

Can you elaborate on this because this has been bugging me for some time. I’ve heard Kay’s comment many times but I have never heard him give an explanation as

Can you elaborate on this because this has been bugging me for some time. I’ve heard Kay’s comment many times but I have never heard him give an explanation as to what practical difference it would make in the day to day task of software development, specifically with respect to Smalltalk 80. When I think of message passing I think of things like Kafka, message queues, ESBs etc. Where the producers and consumers of the messages are completely decoupled and the processing is asynchronous. But I’m not sure how this maps to a thread/proc local context where a caller of a function or method or the sender of a “message” expects a response.

Rochus 4y ago
Kay's view of object-orientation is "messaging, local retention and protection and hiding of state-process, and extreme late-binding of all things" (quoted from http://userpage.fu-berlin.de/~ram/pub/pub_jf47ht81Ht/doc_kay_oop_en http://userpage.fu-berlin.de/~ram/pub/pub_jf47ht81Ht/doc_kay...). This is quite different from what we associate with object-orientation today (objects, classes, inheritance, virtual methods, etc.), and how it was implemented e.g. in Simula 67, or in Java. Kay's view has similarities with Hewitt's actor model (see e.g. https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-Alan-Kays-definition-of-OOP-and-Carl-Hewitts-Actor-Model/answer/Alan-Kay-11 https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-Alan-Ka...). A good source on how Smalltalk-72 was different from Smalltalk-76 is Ingall's 2020 paper (https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3386335 https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3386335). Smalltalk-72 indeed implemented a kind of message passing in that there were objects "sending" token streams to other objects which interpreted these streams; so there was indeed something like a "message", and there are similarities with message queues and parts of Kafka; message passing can be synchronous or asynchronous. Calling a method is not the same as passing a message; there is no message which has to be "interpreted", but the compiler knows the signature of the method and generates efficient code for calling it using a specific ABI. If methods from objects are called which reside in a different address space/process or even on different hardware, then method calls are dispatched over an IPC mechanism or even a network (like e.g. CORBA or some versions of ESBs); the network dispatch is technically message passing, but to the programmer it still looks like a local (synchronous) method call. The Smalltalk community instead prefers to talk about "message passing", even if it is implemented as plain in-process, in-memory method call. It is also notable that already Simula I (1962) had "active objects" (the Simula I objects were called "process") and there was the notion of events and queues.

Rochus 4y ago

Kay's view of object-orientation is "messaging, local retention and protection and hiding of state-process, and extreme late-binding of all things" (quoted from http://userpage.fu-berlin.de/~ram/pub/pub_jf47ht81Ht/doc_kay_oop_en http://userpage.fu-berlin.de/~ram/pub/pub_jf47ht81Ht/doc_kay...). This is quite different from what we associate with object-orientation today (objects, classes, inheritance, virtual methods, etc.), and how it was implemented e.g. in Simula 67, or in Java. Kay's view has similarities with Hewitt's actor model (see e.g. https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-Alan-Kays-definition-of-OOP-and-Carl-Hewitts-Actor-Model/answer/Alan-Kay-11 https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-Alan-Ka...). A good source on how Smalltalk-72 was different from Smalltalk-76 is Ingall's 2020 paper (https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3386335 https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3386335). Smalltalk-72 indeed implemented a kind of message passing in that there were objects "sending" token streams to other objects which interpreted these streams; so there was indeed something like a "message", and there are similarities with message queues and parts of Kafka; message passing can be synchronous or asynchronous. Calling a method is not the same as passing a message; there is no message which has to be "interpreted", but the compiler knows the signature of the method and generates efficient code for calling it using a specific ABI. If methods from objects are called which reside in a different address space/process or even on different hardware, then method calls are dispatched over an IPC mechanism or even a network (like e.g. CORBA or some versions of ESBs); the network dispatch is technically message passing, but to the programmer it still looks like a local (synchronous) method call. The Smalltalk community instead prefers to talk about "message passing", even if it is implemented as plain in-process, in-memory method call. It is also notable that already Simula I (1962) had "active objects" (the Simula I objects were called "process") and there was the notion of events and queues.