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I think he's arguing from the most superficial level. That shaming people for things like use of language is ineffective at actually convincing them to change t

by tootie 4y ago

I think he's arguing from the most superficial level. That shaming people for things like use of language is ineffective at actually convincing them to change their minds. FWIW, I think he's actually wrong. Just by observing my kids and their school-aged peers, they are incredibly accepting of different types of people and lifestyles without a second thought. And they enforce "political correctness" of speech without being told because they understand the principles of why it's wrong. When I was a kid "gay" was one of our go-to pejoratives for almost anything uncool. With my kid's cohort, it's not acceptable because they don't think being gay is insulting. This is obviously anecdotal, but I've heard the same from lots of other parents. If enforcing language wasn't effective at changing minds, propagandists wouldn't make such strong use of it.

Grimburger 4y ago
So what are your kids pejoratives?
- syzar 4y ago
  Removing pejoratives involving sexual orientation still leaves quite a few left. Are you asking because you think his kids might not have a sufficiently rich vocabulary with which to insult someone? Is this a version of “think of the kids”?
  - teawrecks 4y ago
    Pejoratives inherently marginalize someone, and kids will always find pejoratives to use.
    - syzar 4y ago
      But what does this have to do with the point made in OP’s comment? They gave an instance of changed attitudes based off of language usage. They weren’t saying their kids don’t marginalize anyone.
  - dangerface 4y ago
    They claim that being politically correct is not learned by children. > they enforce "political correctness" of speech without being told but then claims that they have learned the difference > When I was a kid "gay" was one of our go-to pejoratives for almost anything uncool. With my kid's cohort, it's not acceptable because they don't think being gay is insulting. Obviously they are different kids growing up in different times with different political climates that have learned a different political correctness but both have learned what is considered politically correct from society. The point "So what are your kids pejoratives?" simply points out that the kids are not born with an inherent knowledge of pejoratives being harmful but have simply learned different pejoratives from their parents and society.
    - syzar 4y ago
      The point OP made was that speech patterns can influence thoughts/ideas. The point wasn’t that their kids don’t have any biases or don’t have a new set of pejoratives they use. It was an argument being made that perhaps political correctness does have a place or is useful. That’s what I deduced from OP’s comment.
    - tootie 4y ago
      "Both have learned what is politically correct from society" There's a huge distinction you're glossing over. Past generations thought that exclusionary language was just fine and that exclusionary behavior was also just fine. The Gen X and Y kids were raised being "told" that exclusionary behavior and language were not acceptable, but it was not a native part of their culture and had to be learned, accepted, adopted through effort. That's the era that coined the phrase "political correctness" mostly as a pejorative term for the efforts to change people's behavior. Adults who were set in their ways were reluctant, but kids heard it and absorbed it. The current generation are being raised to inherently believe that exclusionary language is unacceptable and are self-policing because it's the predominant ethos. It's no longer a lesson to learn, it's a cornerstone of our society to protect. Obviously this varies a lot region by region and even child by child, but it's seemingly past a tipping point.
- tootie 4y ago
  It's a mix of generic terms like just "bad" or "stupid" or "sucks" and youtube/gamer talk like "cursed" or "fail".
karaterobot 4y ago
It's not safe to generalize to all human behavior if your only sample is school-age kids. Kids behave differently than adults. Kids who are being observed behave differently than kids who aren't.
- syzar 4y ago
  I don’t understand your point. The person you responded to isn’t generalizing to all people based off of school age kids. They noticed something about attitudes and speech in their kids versus when they were growing up and this observation comports with well a known fact. Namely, that regulation of speech can frame peoples’ thinking. None of us are experts in everything and we need to try to make sense of things as we go about life. We all use examples/experiences in our lives to make general conclusions about the efficacy of policies.
  - karaterobot 4y ago
    If they're arguing against a general statement (by Fry) with a specific, anecdotal example, it's fair to question whether that specific example is generalizable.
    - syzar 4y ago
      You have it backwards. The general statement by Fry is justly questioned by an example which, if true, suggests the general statement might be false.
syzar 4y ago
I’m interested in the reasons for downvoting this comment. What is written is thought out and done in good faith. I don’t like regulation of word usage but it is true that propagandists can be effective at changing thinking patterns by changing speech patterns.
teawrecks 4y ago
> because they understand the principles of why it's wrong. Do they? Do they really? How old are these kids? Have they reached the rebellious age where they start to question arbitrary rules their parents put in place? When I was a teen, it wasn't hard to censor myself when I was around adults who had their own ideas of what was inappropriate. But when we knew we were out of earshot, we said whatever we wanted. We said things specifically because we knew we weren't supposed to. And I know I'm not alone, I know virtually everyone reading this had a similar experience as a teen. And I don't have any reason to believe this has changed. Maybe it's harder to feel safe with cameras and mics hidden everywhere, but human nature is to try to do what you're told you can't. That won't go away.
- tootie 4y ago
  I'm obviously not listening in on every private conversation, but my kids have shown me group texts of kids chatting with kids in private and they don't let other kids get away with exclusionary language. They still curse with the same sort of f-bombs and such that have been used forever. Ironically, the biggest rebellion language I see is an inordinate number of kids who opt for gender neutral pronouns (they/them). It's not really an expression of being nonbinary as much as it's a statement that they don't want to be told or expected to be a certain way and they'll pick a gender and orientation on their terms when they're good and ready.
Banana699 4y ago
Enforcing puritan language just makes you the new butt of jokes. You may think you're changing hearts and minds, but all of them are just humouring you like we humour kids having a temper tantrum. Independent minds, the ones that count, don't humour though, they will always just double down and use the language you hate further just to enrage you, because fuck you - really - who are you to tell me what to say and what to do? Ironically, the words you hate are now even more venomous and powerful in my hand because you fear and censor them so much. You just reinvented a worse religion, all the uptightness and self-righteousness with none of the community or the forgiveness.
- tootie 4y ago
  "Independent minds, the ones that count, don't humour though, they will always just double down and use the language you hate further just to enrage you, because fuck you" That's incredibly immature. You're basically admitting that your position is just spite. And no one is telling what you can and can't say. Continue speaking however you please. The younger generation are just telling you they won't like it. And no one is obligated to like what you say. It's the same sort of generational divide that's always been around. And history says the new generation almost always wins.
  - Banana699 4y ago
    One man's immaturity is another man's "having a spine to stand up for oneself". Spite is awesome, I wish people had more spite in them, without spite you're just a chicken following whatever the nest is crying about, which is the sorry state of most of humanity most of the time. Your delusions of a monolithic 'younger generation' on the 'right side of history' inevitably triumphing are pathetic. Not how history works, not how reality is; Prime counterexample include me for a start.
    - tootie 4y ago
      I started this thread with an honest personal observation. Your responses are really inappropriate and based on flawed reasoning. You say I'm generalizing because I only observed a small cohort of kids and yet your counterexample is just yourself? And that we should resist change because it's good to be spiteful? You've basically set the goal posts as being "whatever feels right to me" which makes for a pretty pointless debate.

by tootie 4y ago

Grimburger 4y ago

So what are your kids pejoratives?

syzar 4y ago
Removing pejoratives involving sexual orientation still leaves quite a few left. Are you asking because you think his kids might not have a sufficiently rich vocabulary with which to insult someone? Is this a version of “think of the kids”?
- teawrecks 4y ago
  Pejoratives inherently marginalize someone, and kids will always find pejoratives to use.
  - syzar 4y ago
    But what does this have to do with the point made in OP’s comment? They gave an instance of changed attitudes based off of language usage. They weren’t saying their kids don’t marginalize anyone.
- dangerface 4y ago
  They claim that being politically correct is not learned by children. > they enforce "political correctness" of speech without being told but then claims that they have learned the difference > When I was a kid "gay" was one of our go-to pejoratives for almost anything uncool. With my kid's cohort, it's not acceptable because they don't think being gay is insulting. Obviously they are different kids growing up in different times with different political climates that have learned a different political correctness but both have learned what is considered politically correct from society. The point "So what are your kids pejoratives?" simply points out that the kids are not born with an inherent knowledge of pejoratives being harmful but have simply learned different pejoratives from their parents and society.
  - syzar 4y ago
    The point OP made was that speech patterns can influence thoughts/ideas. The point wasn’t that their kids don’t have any biases or don’t have a new set of pejoratives they use. It was an argument being made that perhaps political correctness does have a place or is useful. That’s what I deduced from OP’s comment.
  - tootie 4y ago
    "Both have learned what is politically correct from society" There's a huge distinction you're glossing over. Past generations thought that exclusionary language was just fine and that exclusionary behavior was also just fine. The Gen X and Y kids were raised being "told" that exclusionary behavior and language were not acceptable, but it was not a native part of their culture and had to be learned, accepted, adopted through effort. That's the era that coined the phrase "political correctness" mostly as a pejorative term for the efforts to change people's behavior. Adults who were set in their ways were reluctant, but kids heard it and absorbed it. The current generation are being raised to inherently believe that exclusionary language is unacceptable and are self-policing because it's the predominant ethos. It's no longer a lesson to learn, it's a cornerstone of our society to protect. Obviously this varies a lot region by region and even child by child, but it's seemingly past a tipping point.
tootie 4y ago
It's a mix of generic terms like just "bad" or "stupid" or "sucks" and youtube/gamer talk like "cursed" or "fail".

karaterobot 4y ago

It's not safe to generalize to all human behavior if your only sample is school-age kids. Kids behave differently than adults. Kids who are being observed behave differently than kids who aren't.

syzar 4y ago
I don’t understand your point. The person you responded to isn’t generalizing to all people based off of school age kids. They noticed something about attitudes and speech in their kids versus when they were growing up and this observation comports with well a known fact. Namely, that regulation of speech can frame peoples’ thinking. None of us are experts in everything and we need to try to make sense of things as we go about life. We all use examples/experiences in our lives to make general conclusions about the efficacy of policies.
- karaterobot 4y ago
  If they're arguing against a general statement (by Fry) with a specific, anecdotal example, it's fair to question whether that specific example is generalizable.
  - syzar 4y ago
    You have it backwards. The general statement by Fry is justly questioned by an example which, if true, suggests the general statement might be false.

syzar 4y ago

I’m interested in the reasons for downvoting this comment. What is written is thought out and done in good faith. I don’t like regulation of word usage but it is true that propagandists can be effective at changing thinking patterns by changing speech patterns.

teawrecks 4y ago

> because they understand the principles of why it's wrong. Do they? Do they really? How old are these kids? Have they reached the rebellious age where they start to question arbitrary rules their parents put in place? When I was a teen, it wasn't hard to censor myself when I was around adults who had their own ideas of what was inappropriate. But when we knew we were out of earshot, we said whatever we wanted. We said things specifically because we knew we weren't supposed to. And I know I'm not alone, I know virtually everyone reading this had a similar experience as a teen. And I don't have any reason to believe this has changed. Maybe it's harder to feel safe with cameras and mics hidden everywhere, but human nature is to try to do what you're told you can't. That won't go away.

tootie 4y ago
I'm obviously not listening in on every private conversation, but my kids have shown me group texts of kids chatting with kids in private and they don't let other kids get away with exclusionary language. They still curse with the same sort of f-bombs and such that have been used forever. Ironically, the biggest rebellion language I see is an inordinate number of kids who opt for gender neutral pronouns (they/them). It's not really an expression of being nonbinary as much as it's a statement that they don't want to be told or expected to be a certain way and they'll pick a gender and orientation on their terms when they're good and ready.

Banana699 4y ago

Enforcing puritan language just makes you the new butt of jokes. You may think you're changing hearts and minds, but all of them are just humouring you like we humour kids having a temper tantrum. Independent minds, the ones that count, don't humour though, they will always just double down and use the language you hate further just to enrage you, because fuck you - really - who are you to tell me what to say and what to do? Ironically, the words you hate are now even more venomous and powerful in my hand because you fear and censor them so much. You just reinvented a worse religion, all the uptightness and self-righteousness with none of the community or the forgiveness.

tootie 4y ago
"Independent minds, the ones that count, don't humour though, they will always just double down and use the language you hate further just to enrage you, because fuck you" That's incredibly immature. You're basically admitting that your position is just spite. And no one is telling what you can and can't say. Continue speaking however you please. The younger generation are just telling you they won't like it. And no one is obligated to like what you say. It's the same sort of generational divide that's always been around. And history says the new generation almost always wins.
- Banana699 4y ago
  One man's immaturity is another man's "having a spine to stand up for oneself". Spite is awesome, I wish people had more spite in them, without spite you're just a chicken following whatever the nest is crying about, which is the sorry state of most of humanity most of the time. Your delusions of a monolithic 'younger generation' on the 'right side of history' inevitably triumphing are pathetic. Not how history works, not how reality is; Prime counterexample include me for a start.
  - tootie 4y ago
    I started this thread with an honest personal observation. Your responses are really inappropriate and based on flawed reasoning. You say I'm generalizing because I only observed a small cohort of kids and yet your counterexample is just yourself? And that we should resist change because it's good to be spiteful? You've basically set the goal posts as being "whatever feels right to me" which makes for a pretty pointless debate.