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> "I'm very, very... I won't say dreading, but I'm, hmm, somewhat tentative about this whole thing That's the problem. Shaming and shunning is an ancient techn

> "I'm very, very... I won't say dreading, but I'm, hmm, somewhat tentative about this whole thing That's the problem. Shaming and shunning is an ancient technique for punishing transgressors, but social media enables it to be applied too broadly. All transgressions are put on full blast. If I were a full on Nazi I would get the same treatment as I would if expressed that I'm glad my son doesn't want to be a girl. It gets tiresome, shuts down free speech and punishes people who don't deserve it. It allows otherwise powerless people to become powerful in their faux outrage and hurt others that don't deserve it in the process.

nailer 4y ago
> "I'm very, very... I won't say dreading, but I'm, hmm, somewhat tentative about this whole thing. I don't think Jordan Peterson is a man with whom I necessarily share an enormous amount of, you know… I don't know, an I'm an enormous fan of both men. Both are academic types, Peterson has a love for the natural world, Fry for history. They both believe in values - Peterson focusing on self-discipline, Fry on kindness. The only thing I can work out that's different is that some people have decided that Peterson is evil for not supporting compelled speech, or acknowledging humans are animals, or some other nonsense - Fry could absolutely be in Peterson's position if the cards had fallen differently.
- boxmonster 4y ago
  Early Jordan Peterson was great. My first intro to him was in 2015 or so and it was a talk he gave on depression that helped me. Recent Jordan Peterson has gone off the rails and seems more interested in attention. He's become kind of a troll like Ben Shapiro. I guess it's a way to make a living and get your jollies.
  - nailer 4y ago
    How so? You’ve given examples of good things but not bad things.
  - netsharc 4y ago
    I wasn't sure about him (I didn't care enough to research him) until he started spouting stuff about an area he's not an expert of: climate change. At that point I concluded he is, as you said, an attention seeking troll.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
RichardCNormos 4y ago
I left social media 5 years ago, and haven't looked back. Facebook, Twitter, and especially LinkedIn, because I don't want the mob to know where I work. Let them find an easier target. It became a liability, because of just how mercurial the outrage mob is. They will dig up something you said 15 years ago, or something your father said, and you'll lose your job because of it. The only exception is HN, which I use under an assumed name, because I can't bring myself to leave you all :-)
- hilbert42 4y ago
  Social media must take much of the blame (and it's one of the reasons I don't use it). Nevertheless, I believe there are deeper cultural reasons at its root. For many reasons, people today have less resilience than they did half century ago and even less than the prewar generation. These reasons are many and diverse and it's hardly possible to detail them here in any comprehensive way but some are very obvious. First, there's not the same emphasis on teaching manners and self-restraint as there was, say, five decades ago. Nor is the same level of emphasis placed on listening to others and making an effort to understand and accommodate their views as there once was. Similarly, there's a righteous sense of self-entitlement that once wasn't there to the extent it is today. And then there's the overprotection bubble that kids have been brought up in over the past forty or so years - for instance, kids being driven to school, and or not being allowed to discover the 'bad' world for themselves. This breeds timidity and an over sensitivity to worldly knocks and thus people now overreact at the slightest provocation - even when they experience the mildest indignation or upset. Couple these issues with the ever-increasing number of groups of people who consider themselves disadvantaged in comparison to others and we've a recipe for trouble. Having to make 'allowances' and or special rules for so many subgroups of people - whether or not these groups have legitimate or reasonable claims - is wearying society. (Here, I'm not suggesting these groups don't have a legitimate cause, rather it's the effort that society has to expend in adjusting to and accommodating them that's a major source of problem.) Then there's other factors such as inequality which is growing so fast that people haven't time to adjust. Same goes for racism, mix too many different ethnic groups too quickly and or that the population growth rises too quickly so people don't have time to adjust and the discontent manifests as resentment towards others. Put all this together with a media that squawks loudly at the slightest provocation and you've conflict for sure. It seems from the evidence that Fry does have a valid point, how relevant it is remains to be seen. Incidentally, decades ago when I was growing up and copped abuse from others, I was taught to consider the old ditty 'sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me'. From my experience, there's a modicum of truth in that saying.
pandemicsoul 4y ago
> If I were a full on Nazi I would get the same treatment as I would if expressed that I'm glad my son doesn't want to be a girl. If that were true, either no one would be on social media except perfectly politically correct people, or everyone would be desperately trying to be perfectly politically correct. But instead, social media is filled with racist, homophobic, sexist jerks who constantly say things that hurt other people and reinforce stereotypes. So...
- boxmonster 4y ago
  You're confusing Russian bots with real people. Real people who are racist homophobes have gone to ghettos like Gab because they've been chased off Twitter. Why can't I say I'm glad my son doesn't want to be a girl on Twitter under my real name without fearing for my life? I'm not saying I wouldn't support him becoming a girl. I'm saying I'm glad he's happy with who he is and it's easier for us all if he's a boy and likes being a boy.
- dangerface 4y ago
  > But instead, social media is filled with racist, homophobic, sexist jerks who constantly say things that hurt other people and reinforce stereotypes. So.. Thats all politically correct its just the oppositions political parties idea of politically correct.
Joeboy 4y ago
I don't think that's quite right. If you were a full-on Nazi you'd be generally ignored by the sort of people who spend their time calling out minor transgressions among their fellow travellers.
threatofrain 4y ago
This is also the problem I see behind critiquing cancellation / shunning when the act is often based upon either the freedom of speech or the freedom of association. People must agree to stop shunning each other, but they cannot be compelled without cutting back on their freedom of speech or freedom of association.

nailer 4y ago

> "I'm very, very... I won't say dreading, but I'm, hmm, somewhat tentative about this whole thing. I don't think Jordan Peterson is a man with whom I necessarily share an enormous amount of, you know… I don't know, an I'm an enormous fan of both men. Both are academic types, Peterson has a love for the natural world, Fry for history. They both believe in values - Peterson focusing on self-discipline, Fry on kindness. The only thing I can work out that's different is that some people have decided that Peterson is evil for not supporting compelled speech, or acknowledging humans are animals, or some other nonsense - Fry could absolutely be in Peterson's position if the cards had fallen differently.

boxmonster 4y ago
Early Jordan Peterson was great. My first intro to him was in 2015 or so and it was a talk he gave on depression that helped me. Recent Jordan Peterson has gone off the rails and seems more interested in attention. He's become kind of a troll like Ben Shapiro. I guess it's a way to make a living and get your jollies.
- nailer 4y ago
  How so? You’ve given examples of good things but not bad things.
- netsharc 4y ago
  I wasn't sure about him (I didn't care enough to research him) until he started spouting stuff about an area he's not an expert of: climate change. At that point I concluded he is, as you said, an attention seeking troll.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

RichardCNormos 4y ago

I left social media 5 years ago, and haven't looked back. Facebook, Twitter, and especially LinkedIn, because I don't want the mob to know where I work. Let them find an easier target. It became a liability, because of just how mercurial the outrage mob is. They will dig up something you said 15 years ago, or something your father said, and you'll lose your job because of it. The only exception is HN, which I use under an assumed name, because I can't bring myself to leave you all :-)

hilbert42 4y ago
Social media must take much of the blame (and it's one of the reasons I don't use it). Nevertheless, I believe there are deeper cultural reasons at its root. For many reasons, people today have less resilience than they did half century ago and even less than the prewar generation. These reasons are many and diverse and it's hardly possible to detail them here in any comprehensive way but some are very obvious. First, there's not the same emphasis on teaching manners and self-restraint as there was, say, five decades ago. Nor is the same level of emphasis placed on listening to others and making an effort to understand and accommodate their views as there once was. Similarly, there's a righteous sense of self-entitlement that once wasn't there to the extent it is today. And then there's the overprotection bubble that kids have been brought up in over the past forty or so years - for instance, kids being driven to school, and or not being allowed to discover the 'bad' world for themselves. This breeds timidity and an over sensitivity to worldly knocks and thus people now overreact at the slightest provocation - even when they experience the mildest indignation or upset. Couple these issues with the ever-increasing number of groups of people who consider themselves disadvantaged in comparison to others and we've a recipe for trouble. Having to make 'allowances' and or special rules for so many subgroups of people - whether or not these groups have legitimate or reasonable claims - is wearying society. (Here, I'm not suggesting these groups don't have a legitimate cause, rather it's the effort that society has to expend in adjusting to and accommodating them that's a major source of problem.) Then there's other factors such as inequality which is growing so fast that people haven't time to adjust. Same goes for racism, mix too many different ethnic groups too quickly and or that the population growth rises too quickly so people don't have time to adjust and the discontent manifests as resentment towards others. Put all this together with a media that squawks loudly at the slightest provocation and you've conflict for sure. It seems from the evidence that Fry does have a valid point, how relevant it is remains to be seen. Incidentally, decades ago when I was growing up and copped abuse from others, I was taught to consider the old ditty 'sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me'. From my experience, there's a modicum of truth in that saying.

pandemicsoul 4y ago

> If I were a full on Nazi I would get the same treatment as I would if expressed that I'm glad my son doesn't want to be a girl. If that were true, either no one would be on social media except perfectly politically correct people, or everyone would be desperately trying to be perfectly politically correct. But instead, social media is filled with racist, homophobic, sexist jerks who constantly say things that hurt other people and reinforce stereotypes. So...

boxmonster 4y ago
You're confusing Russian bots with real people. Real people who are racist homophobes have gone to ghettos like Gab because they've been chased off Twitter. Why can't I say I'm glad my son doesn't want to be a girl on Twitter under my real name without fearing for my life? I'm not saying I wouldn't support him becoming a girl. I'm saying I'm glad he's happy with who he is and it's easier for us all if he's a boy and likes being a boy.
dangerface 4y ago
> But instead, social media is filled with racist, homophobic, sexist jerks who constantly say things that hurt other people and reinforce stereotypes. So.. Thats all politically correct its just the oppositions political parties idea of politically correct.

Joeboy 4y ago

I don't think that's quite right. If you were a full-on Nazi you'd be generally ignored by the sort of people who spend their time calling out minor transgressions among their fellow travellers.

threatofrain 4y ago

This is also the problem I see behind critiquing cancellation / shunning when the act is often based upon either the freedom of speech or the freedom of association. People must agree to stop shunning each other, but they cannot be compelled without cutting back on their freedom of speech or freedom of association.