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For an article with this headline, it's rather surprising that it never says why Stephen Fry is arguing against political correctness. Here's why, I think: bec

For an article with this headline, it's rather surprising that it never says why Stephen Fry is arguing against political correctness. Here's why, I think: because Stephen Fry is, among other things, a comedian. And comedians are highly sensitive to political correctness and its ills. They are the canaries in the coal mine of wokeness.

nailer 4y ago
It's not effective: from the article: > it's po-faced, sanctimonious, self-righteous occasionally ... it's not effective.
- SeanLuke 4y ago
  That's the argument he's making. It's not why he's making the argument.
  - slingnow 4y ago
    He's making the argument against it because it's not effective in achieving the causes he cares about, and he wants people to be effective. It's all at the bottom of the article: > I've always been on the side of these things and I've been very happy to see the end to the national conversation in saner and saner ways. But I do not believe for a second that political correctness has hastened those advances, at all. > And my only problem with politically correctness really, apart from the fact that it's po-faced, sanctimonious, self-righteous occasionally, is that it's not effective. > I want people to be effective. > I want, yes, gay people and transgender people and people of all kinds of races and, you know, marginal identities as they may see themselves — I want them to feel comfortable in the world and not hated and not afraid. But I don't think political correctness is the way to achieve that.
  - nailer 4y ago
    It answers the question of why he is arguing against political correctness, which was the question being asked here.
tootie 4y ago
I think he's arguing from the most superficial level. That shaming people for things like use of language is ineffective at actually convincing them to change their minds. FWIW, I think he's actually wrong. Just by observing my kids and their school-aged peers, they are incredibly accepting of different types of people and lifestyles without a second thought. And they enforce "political correctness" of speech without being told because they understand the principles of why it's wrong. When I was a kid "gay" was one of our go-to pejoratives for almost anything uncool. With my kid's cohort, it's not acceptable because they don't think being gay is insulting. This is obviously anecdotal, but I've heard the same from lots of other parents. If enforcing language wasn't effective at changing minds, propagandists wouldn't make such strong use of it.
- Grimburger 4y ago
  So what are your kids pejoratives?
  - syzar 4y ago
    Removing pejoratives involving sexual orientation still leaves quite a few left. Are you asking because you think his kids might not have a sufficiently rich vocabulary with which to insult someone? Is this a version of “think of the kids”?
    - teawrecks 4y ago
      Pejoratives inherently marginalize someone, and kids will always find pejoratives to use.
      - syzar 4y ago
        But what does this have to do with the point made in OP’s comment? They gave an instance of changed attitudes based off of language usage. They weren’t saying their kids don’t marginalize anyone.
    - dangerface 4y ago
michaelwww 4y ago
Fry is also bipolar like me. When I get manic I say provocative things that I regret later on. The cultural climate is much less forgiving of that sort of thing. I think Fry would agree with me, if you think you might be bipolar seek help. Modern meds are really good and don't make you stupid like the old days.
- forgotmypw17 4y ago
  I agree with most of your comment, but don't understand the conclusion. Doesn't medicating entail adjusting one's most natural way of being to fit society's expectations?
ghusto 4y ago
It says why (because he feels it's counter-productive to achieving the goal of a more inclusive society), but I'd highly recommend just going and watching the full debate yourself. I remember it, and it was basically a warning of all the things that have happened in America. Thankfully we're always a little behind America here in Europe.
- SeanLuke 4y ago
  "It's counter productive" is the argument he's making. It's not why he's making the argument. A lot of people are making this grammar error. The headline isn't saying "What Stephen Fry is arguing"... it's stating "Why Stephen Fry is arguing"...
  - ghusto 4y ago
    The phrase "because he feels it's counter-productive to achieving the goal of a more inclusive society", holds "and he wants a more inclusive society" implicitly. He even says that _explicitly_. Or are you suggesting his motivations are something else? More to the point, who cares for the sake of the argument? Are you trolling?
    - SeanLuke 4y ago
      I'm just irritated that people didn't read my original post, where I specifically laid out why I think he's making the argument. Everyone keeps replying with a misinterpretation of the headline as "the question why" rather than "why the question".

nailer 4y ago

It's not effective: from the article: > it's po-faced, sanctimonious, self-righteous occasionally ... it's not effective.

SeanLuke 4y ago
That's the argument he's making. It's not why he's making the argument.
- slingnow 4y ago
  He's making the argument against it because it's not effective in achieving the causes he cares about, and he wants people to be effective. It's all at the bottom of the article: > I've always been on the side of these things and I've been very happy to see the end to the national conversation in saner and saner ways. But I do not believe for a second that political correctness has hastened those advances, at all. > And my only problem with politically correctness really, apart from the fact that it's po-faced, sanctimonious, self-righteous occasionally, is that it's not effective. > I want people to be effective. > I want, yes, gay people and transgender people and people of all kinds of races and, you know, marginal identities as they may see themselves — I want them to feel comfortable in the world and not hated and not afraid. But I don't think political correctness is the way to achieve that.
- nailer 4y ago
  It answers the question of why he is arguing against political correctness, which was the question being asked here.

tootie 4y ago

I think he's arguing from the most superficial level. That shaming people for things like use of language is ineffective at actually convincing them to change their minds. FWIW, I think he's actually wrong. Just by observing my kids and their school-aged peers, they are incredibly accepting of different types of people and lifestyles without a second thought. And they enforce "political correctness" of speech without being told because they understand the principles of why it's wrong. When I was a kid "gay" was one of our go-to pejoratives for almost anything uncool. With my kid's cohort, it's not acceptable because they don't think being gay is insulting. This is obviously anecdotal, but I've heard the same from lots of other parents. If enforcing language wasn't effective at changing minds, propagandists wouldn't make such strong use of it.

Grimburger 4y ago
So what are your kids pejoratives?
- syzar 4y ago
  Removing pejoratives involving sexual orientation still leaves quite a few left. Are you asking because you think his kids might not have a sufficiently rich vocabulary with which to insult someone? Is this a version of “think of the kids”?
  - teawrecks 4y ago
    Pejoratives inherently marginalize someone, and kids will always find pejoratives to use.
    - syzar 4y ago
      But what does this have to do with the point made in OP’s comment? They gave an instance of changed attitudes based off of language usage. They weren’t saying their kids don’t marginalize anyone.
  - dangerface 4y ago

michaelwww 4y ago

Fry is also bipolar like me. When I get manic I say provocative things that I regret later on. The cultural climate is much less forgiving of that sort of thing. I think Fry would agree with me, if you think you might be bipolar seek help. Modern meds are really good and don't make you stupid like the old days.

forgotmypw17 4y ago
I agree with most of your comment, but don't understand the conclusion. Doesn't medicating entail adjusting one's most natural way of being to fit society's expectations?

ghusto 4y ago

It says why (because he feels it's counter-productive to achieving the goal of a more inclusive society), but I'd highly recommend just going and watching the full debate yourself. I remember it, and it was basically a warning of all the things that have happened in America. Thankfully we're always a little behind America here in Europe.

SeanLuke 4y ago
"It's counter productive" is the argument he's making. It's not why he's making the argument. A lot of people are making this grammar error. The headline isn't saying "What Stephen Fry is arguing"... it's stating "Why Stephen Fry is arguing"...
- ghusto 4y ago
  The phrase "because he feels it's counter-productive to achieving the goal of a more inclusive society", holds "and he wants a more inclusive society" implicitly. He even says that _explicitly_. Or are you suggesting his motivations are something else? More to the point, who cares for the sake of the argument? Are you trolling?
  - SeanLuke 4y ago
    I'm just irritated that people didn't read my original post, where I specifically laid out why I think he's making the argument. Everyone keeps replying with a misinterpretation of the headline as "the question why" rather than "why the question".