4 ms·

Whoa. Nevermind the stupid drink/drug thing [1], but being pulled over on a bike and searched would be the day I'd give up, I guess. At least in DE this is, in

Whoa. Nevermind the stupid drink/drug thing [1], but being pulled over on a bike and searched would be the day I'd give up, I guess. At least in DE this is, in my experience and my social circles, totally unheard of and unbelievable. 1: There are tests for alcohol/drugs. For drugs they _might_ search your car if there's a reasonable doubt, but so far I only know about these controls near borders, especially to NL: It's just easy/legal to get weed there and the customs police (?) isn't stupid and watching for ~interesting~ cars crossing over. I've never heard of searches related to alcohol. If there's any indication that you had alcohol you might have to do the breath test. If you fail that or don't want to do that, then it's off to the police station for a blood test. No need to search you or your car, and damn certainly not your mobile?

sneak 15y ago
As someone who left all of his friends and family and connections behind in the USA when it became a police state and moved to Germany, I can tell you with certainty that it really is that bad there.
- RyanHolliday 15y ago
  I'd like to point out the hypocrisy of holding Germany up as a bright and shining alternative[1]. Regardless of what you think about the state of government in the US, nothing you say about the Holocaust here will you get imprisoned. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial#Germany http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial#G...
  - icebraining 15y ago
    Of course, those laws were actually first imposed by the US military after WWII: The Information Control Division of the U.S. Army had by July 1946 taken control of 37 German newspapers, 6 radio stations, 314 theaters, 642 cinemas, 101 magazines, 237 book publishers, and 7,384 book dealers and printers. Its main mission was democratization but the agenda also included the prohibition on any criticism of the Allied occupation forces. In addition, on May 13, 1946 the Allied Control council issued a directive for the confiscation of all media that could contribute to Nazism or militarism. As a consequence a list was drawn up of over 30,000 book titles, ranging from school textbooks to poetry, which were now banned. All copies of books on the list were confiscated and destroyed; the possession of a book on the list was made a punishable offense. All the millions of copies of these books were to be confiscated and destroyed. The representative of the Military Directorate admitted that the order was in principle no different from the Nazi book burnings. The censorship in the U.S. zone was regulated by the occupation directive JCS 1067 (valid until July 1947) and in the May 1946 order valid for all zones (rescinded in 1950), Allied Control Authority Order No. 4, "No. 4 - Confiscation of Literature and Material of a Nazi and Militarist Nature". All confiscated literature was reduced to pulp instead of burning. It was also directed by Directive No. 30, "Liquidation of German Military and Nazi Memorials and Museums." An exception was made for tombstones "erected at the places where members of regular formations died on the field of battle." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_the_Federal_Republic_of_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_the_Federal_Repu...
  - darklajid 15y ago
    My pet peeve. Considering "Freedom of speech" the most valuable freedom of all, because a particular piece of paper created a culture/country that is based on that idea. Thing is - people here tend to disagree. Yes, you cannot say whatever you want. No, you're not easily allowed to have a gun at home. But look - that's a freedom that is debatable in itself and even if we'd discuss it for hours over a couple of beers: We'd probably end up having to agree to disagree on the merits of both approaches. Or philosophies. Or ideologies. Look, I don't particularly like Germany. I think patriotism is as good an idea as being a fanatic football follower, regardless of your home country. Someone put it better than me here: [1]. There's a lot wrong in DE as well, but if someone from the US calls the US a police state and you're invoking that difference in belief and laws as kind of an example how bad it is over in DE, then I think you're lacking perspective. 1: http://www.futilitycloset.com/2011/09/22/one-world/ http://www.futilitycloset.com/2011/09/22/one-world/
    - sneak 15y ago
      You're not allowed to have a gun at home in NYC, either. It's the worst of both worlds.
  - Confusion 15y ago
    That one minor restriction of your freedom of speech really doesn't carry a lot of weight when I compare it to the widespread abuse of power by cops. If I'm stopped by a cop in Germany or the Netherlands, I don't have a thing to fear, except for being fined for a traffic violation or a car malfunction. You don't hear stories about cops abusing their power, because they are extremely rare. Cops can be trusted. If I'm stopped by a cop in the US, God knows what may happen. I could be beaten, have evidence planted on me or be accused of crimes where their word is simply enough. Cops are not to be trusted. I'd rather yield to not being allowed to deny the holocaust, thank you very much. It's not as if the US doesn't have a whole range of exceptions to freedom of speech[1] anyway, some of which could reasonably be considered to include holocaust denial (incitement, defamation, obscenity). It's not arbitrary that it's forbidden in Germany and it's really ridiculous that some Americans keep bringing that up. Is that really the best you can do, complaining about the insidious nature of being denied the right to deny the holocaust? [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_by_country#United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_by_country#Un...
  - sneak 15y ago
    Have you read the entirety of the first amendment? It has some bits about peaceable assembly and press in there too. Been to NYC lately?
rdtsc 15y ago
Here is how it goes. They stop you. While they've got you, it is easier to pile on charges than having to go chasing after someone else. Or they are just bored. Or they had a fight with their gf and now they are pissed off. So they "smell" drugs. Ok, they ask you if they can search your car. They do it in a very casual kind of way, you know, "mind if I take a quick look around the front seat of your car?". If you know what is coming, you should say "no, I don't consent to a search". Then they tell you they'll bring in the drug dogs, so might as well let them as they'll "go easy on you". You still refuse. So now you are going to get punished because you are not cooperative. Drug dog can come in anytime from a half-an-hour to an hour later. At this point it the officer is angry and he is pretty sure you have something to hide. He is expecting a nice drug bust. Drug dog comes in 2 hours later. Officer walks him around the car. Come back and says. Dog signaled, drugs. "We are going to have to search your car." So they search your car. They don't find drugs but maybe they see a suspicious looking package in your trunk, is that a bomb? Could be. Maybe they see some white powder in your backseat. Better take you into the station, it might be cocaine, they need to test it better. You are at the station, being booked. You are there for the whole weekend + a holiday on Monday. Finally after 3 days they drop the charges and let you go. And all you wanted was to go and get flour and milk so you can make pancakes on Saturday for breakfast.
freehunter 15y ago
I can corroborate the being pulled over on a bike. I had it happen twice in one day. On my way into work, I was riding the road when an officer stopped me and cited this law >"A low-speed vehicle shall be operated at a speed of not to exceed 25 miles per hour and shall not be operated on a highway or street with a speed limit of more than 35 miles per hour except for the purpose of crossing that highway or street. " Since this road was 45mph, he told me I had to get on the sidewalk. On the way home, I'm on the sidewalk. Cop pulls me over, tells me I have to be on the road. He cited the law >"A moped or low-speed vehicle shall not be operated on a sidewalk constructed for the use of pedestrians." I did not get searched, but it does serve to back up that everyone is a criminal when it comes to traffic laws, and in quite a few cases they're crafted so carelessly that they can become impossible to follow, and even more impossible to understand. I _can_ relate an anecdote from a friend who was biking through a DUI checkpoint and got stopped and checked for alcohol. He said the officer asked to look inside his backpack, but he refused and the officer didn't press the issue. That's second-hand information, though.

sneak 15y ago

As someone who left all of his friends and family and connections behind in the USA when it became a police state and moved to Germany, I can tell you with certainty that it really is that bad there.

RyanHolliday 15y ago
I'd like to point out the hypocrisy of holding Germany up as a bright and shining alternative[1]. Regardless of what you think about the state of government in the US, nothing you say about the Holocaust here will you get imprisoned. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial#Germany http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial#G...
- icebraining 15y ago
  Of course, those laws were actually first imposed by the US military after WWII: The Information Control Division of the U.S. Army had by July 1946 taken control of 37 German newspapers, 6 radio stations, 314 theaters, 642 cinemas, 101 magazines, 237 book publishers, and 7,384 book dealers and printers. Its main mission was democratization but the agenda also included the prohibition on any criticism of the Allied occupation forces. In addition, on May 13, 1946 the Allied Control council issued a directive for the confiscation of all media that could contribute to Nazism or militarism. As a consequence a list was drawn up of over 30,000 book titles, ranging from school textbooks to poetry, which were now banned. All copies of books on the list were confiscated and destroyed; the possession of a book on the list was made a punishable offense. All the millions of copies of these books were to be confiscated and destroyed. The representative of the Military Directorate admitted that the order was in principle no different from the Nazi book burnings. The censorship in the U.S. zone was regulated by the occupation directive JCS 1067 (valid until July 1947) and in the May 1946 order valid for all zones (rescinded in 1950), Allied Control Authority Order No. 4, "No. 4 - Confiscation of Literature and Material of a Nazi and Militarist Nature". All confiscated literature was reduced to pulp instead of burning. It was also directed by Directive No. 30, "Liquidation of German Military and Nazi Memorials and Museums." An exception was made for tombstones "erected at the places where members of regular formations died on the field of battle." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_the_Federal_Republic_of_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_the_Federal_Repu...
- darklajid 15y ago
  My pet peeve. Considering "Freedom of speech" the most valuable freedom of all, because a particular piece of paper created a culture/country that is based on that idea. Thing is - people here tend to disagree. Yes, you cannot say whatever you want. No, you're not easily allowed to have a gun at home. But look - that's a freedom that is debatable in itself and even if we'd discuss it for hours over a couple of beers: We'd probably end up having to agree to disagree on the merits of both approaches. Or philosophies. Or ideologies. Look, I don't particularly like Germany. I think patriotism is as good an idea as being a fanatic football follower, regardless of your home country. Someone put it better than me here: [1]. There's a lot wrong in DE as well, but if someone from the US calls the US a police state and you're invoking that difference in belief and laws as kind of an example how bad it is over in DE, then I think you're lacking perspective. 1: http://www.futilitycloset.com/2011/09/22/one-world/ http://www.futilitycloset.com/2011/09/22/one-world/
  - sneak 15y ago
    You're not allowed to have a gun at home in NYC, either. It's the worst of both worlds.
- Confusion 15y ago
  That one minor restriction of your freedom of speech really doesn't carry a lot of weight when I compare it to the widespread abuse of power by cops. If I'm stopped by a cop in Germany or the Netherlands, I don't have a thing to fear, except for being fined for a traffic violation or a car malfunction. You don't hear stories about cops abusing their power, because they are extremely rare. Cops can be trusted. If I'm stopped by a cop in the US, God knows what may happen. I could be beaten, have evidence planted on me or be accused of crimes where their word is simply enough. Cops are not to be trusted. I'd rather yield to not being allowed to deny the holocaust, thank you very much. It's not as if the US doesn't have a whole range of exceptions to freedom of speech[1] anyway, some of which could reasonably be considered to include holocaust denial (incitement, defamation, obscenity). It's not arbitrary that it's forbidden in Germany and it's really ridiculous that some Americans keep bringing that up. Is that really the best you can do, complaining about the insidious nature of being denied the right to deny the holocaust? [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_by_country#United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_by_country#Un...
- sneak 15y ago
  Have you read the entirety of the first amendment? It has some bits about peaceable assembly and press in there too. Been to NYC lately?

rdtsc 15y ago

Here is how it goes. They stop you. While they've got you, it is easier to pile on charges than having to go chasing after someone else. Or they are just bored. Or they had a fight with their gf and now they are pissed off. So they "smell" drugs. Ok, they ask you if they can search your car. They do it in a very casual kind of way, you know, "mind if I take a quick look around the front seat of your car?". If you know what is coming, you should say "no, I don't consent to a search". Then they tell you they'll bring in the drug dogs, so might as well let them as they'll "go easy on you". You still refuse. So now you are going to get punished because you are not cooperative. Drug dog can come in anytime from a half-an-hour to an hour later. At this point it the officer is angry and he is pretty sure you have something to hide. He is expecting a nice drug bust. Drug dog comes in 2 hours later. Officer walks him around the car. Come back and says. Dog signaled, drugs. "We are going to have to search your car." So they search your car. They don't find drugs but maybe they see a suspicious looking package in your trunk, is that a bomb? Could be. Maybe they see some white powder in your backseat. Better take you into the station, it might be cocaine, they need to test it better. You are at the station, being booked. You are there for the whole weekend + a holiday on Monday. Finally after 3 days they drop the charges and let you go. And all you wanted was to go and get flour and milk so you can make pancakes on Saturday for breakfast.

freehunter 15y ago

I can corroborate the being pulled over on a bike. I had it happen twice in one day. On my way into work, I was riding the road when an officer stopped me and cited this law >"A low-speed vehicle shall be operated at a speed of not to exceed 25 miles per hour and shall not be operated on a highway or street with a speed limit of more than 35 miles per hour except for the purpose of crossing that highway or street. " Since this road was 45mph, he told me I had to get on the sidewalk. On the way home, I'm on the sidewalk. Cop pulls me over, tells me I have to be on the road. He cited the law >"A moped or low-speed vehicle shall not be operated on a sidewalk constructed for the use of pedestrians." I did not get searched, but it does serve to back up that everyone is a criminal when it comes to traffic laws, and in quite a few cases they're crafted so carelessly that they can become impossible to follow, and even more impossible to understand. I _can_ relate an anecdote from a friend who was biking through a DUI checkpoint and got stopped and checked for alcohol. He said the officer asked to look inside his backpack, but he refused and the officer didn't press the issue. That's second-hand information, though.