7 ms·

Anybody here using Smalltalk in production?

melvinroest 4y ago
At Yesplan [1] we use GemStone in production, we use Pharo for development. The languages are quite alike, but we do need to have a compatibility layer between the two. For example, GemStone doesn't have dynamic arrays (arrays that evaluate expressions of each element). Our CTO knows companies that use Pharo in production. I'm sure there are also people using VisualWorks in production. All of these languages are Smalltalk descendants. [1] http://yesplan.be http://yesplan.be
- rbanffy 4y ago
  Would you say Smalltalk is a competitive advantage?
  - melvinroest 4y ago
    Not for hiring. In terms of programming, in terms of programmer motivation yes. Not sure in terms of actual effectiveness.
    - rbanffy 4y ago
      When you hire someone with experience in an esoteric or obscure language, there is a reasonable chance the person really likes learning esoteric or obscure languages. This is usually a plus.
  - 0x445442 4y ago
    Yeah, I’ve programmed (not professionally) quite a bit in the various free Smalltalks and from a purely development perspective I could easily see it as a competitive advantage. The big question I would have is performance of the VMs and images under load but I guess that would fall under premature optimization. I imagine horizontal scaling or transitioning to Gemstone when needed would be the answer.
  - sebastianconcpt 4y ago
    The productivity that a handful of good smalltalkers can achieve to solve complex systems is off the charts. The strongest thing that Smalltalk has is that you'll feel really powerful to deal with changes in the rules of scenarios that are high in complexity. So speed in adapting to change fast is what I see as its most valuable trait.
    - hota_mazi 4y ago
      > The productivity that a handful of good smalltalkers can achieve to solve complex systems is off the charts. You could say that of any experts in any system. They will be extremely productive. There is really nothing special about Smalltalk that makes its developers automatically more productive (especially not the IDE, which is vastly outclassed today by the likes of IDEA, XCode, and Visual Studio).
      - sebastianconcpt 4y ago
        Sounds you're asking for an old-school good team competition.
      - pjmlp 4y ago
        If only the likes of IDEA, XCode, and Visual Studio were able to do hot-reload and REPL based development like Smalltalk was doing in the mid-80's. But no, the occasional oops need to rebuild the world, still happens.
        Rochus 4y ago
        Depending what you (incidentally) change in Smalltalk you also have to recompile all methods.
        sebastianconcpt 4y ago
        Being fair, that's not a typical need with code at application level.
        4y ago
jeffreygoesto 4y ago
These guys do: https://www.etas.com/en/company/news-archive-2018-28208.php https://www.etas.com/en/company/news-archive-2018-28208.php
Rochus 4y ago
Yes, in the early nineties; learned me to appreciate static typing and avoid image based languages.
arnsholt 4y ago
In a previous job I worked on the case management software used by the Norwegian police. It was first put into production in ‘96, based on an earlier system from I think ‘94 (thus the Smalltalk). All criminal complaints in Norway pass through this system. As a developer, I found the system really nice to work on, despite an antiquated Smalltalk implementation at the base (end of lifed in ‘99). Since the IDE is integrated into the running application, the development process was extremely smooth for a desktop application like that. But the process was an acquired taste, not all the developers got into the groove.
sebastianconcpt 4y ago
Yes. At https://telna.com/ https://telna.com/ we have it in a backend that in last july it was helping to route half petabyte of network traffic and is expected to reach 1 PB by the end of this year.

At Yesplan [1] we use GemStone in production, we use Pharo for development. The languages are quite alike, but we do need to have a compatibility layer between the two. For example, GemStone doesn't have dynamic arrays (arrays that evaluate expressions of each element). Our CTO knows companies that use Pharo in production. I'm sure there are also people using VisualWorks in production. All of these languages are Smalltalk descendants. [1] http://yesplan.be http://yesplan.be

rbanffy 4y ago
Would you say Smalltalk is a competitive advantage?
- melvinroest 4y ago
  Not for hiring. In terms of programming, in terms of programmer motivation yes. Not sure in terms of actual effectiveness.
  - rbanffy 4y ago
    When you hire someone with experience in an esoteric or obscure language, there is a reasonable chance the person really likes learning esoteric or obscure languages. This is usually a plus.
- 0x445442 4y ago
  Yeah, I’ve programmed (not professionally) quite a bit in the various free Smalltalks and from a purely development perspective I could easily see it as a competitive advantage. The big question I would have is performance of the VMs and images under load but I guess that would fall under premature optimization. I imagine horizontal scaling or transitioning to Gemstone when needed would be the answer.
- sebastianconcpt 4y ago
  The productivity that a handful of good smalltalkers can achieve to solve complex systems is off the charts. The strongest thing that Smalltalk has is that you'll feel really powerful to deal with changes in the rules of scenarios that are high in complexity. So speed in adapting to change fast is what I see as its most valuable trait.
  - hota_mazi 4y ago
    > The productivity that a handful of good smalltalkers can achieve to solve complex systems is off the charts. You could say that of any experts in any system. They will be extremely productive. There is really nothing special about Smalltalk that makes its developers automatically more productive (especially not the IDE, which is vastly outclassed today by the likes of IDEA, XCode, and Visual Studio).
    - sebastianconcpt 4y ago
      Sounds you're asking for an old-school good team competition.
    - pjmlp 4y ago
      If only the likes of IDEA, XCode, and Visual Studio were able to do hot-reload and REPL based development like Smalltalk was doing in the mid-80's. But no, the occasional oops need to rebuild the world, still happens.
      - Rochus 4y ago
        Depending what you (incidentally) change in Smalltalk you also have to recompile all methods.
        sebastianconcpt 4y ago
        Being fair, that's not a typical need with code at application level.
        4y ago

jeffreygoesto 4y ago

These guys do: https://www.etas.com/en/company/news-archive-2018-28208.php https://www.etas.com/en/company/news-archive-2018-28208.php

Rochus 4y ago

Yes, in the early nineties; learned me to appreciate static typing and avoid image based languages.

arnsholt 4y ago

In a previous job I worked on the case management software used by the Norwegian police. It was first put into production in ‘96, based on an earlier system from I think ‘94 (thus the Smalltalk). All criminal complaints in Norway pass through this system. As a developer, I found the system really nice to work on, despite an antiquated Smalltalk implementation at the base (end of lifed in ‘99). Since the IDE is integrated into the running application, the development process was extremely smooth for a desktop application like that. But the process was an acquired taste, not all the developers got into the groove.

sebastianconcpt 4y ago

Yes. At https://telna.com/ https://telna.com/ we have it in a backend that in last july it was helping to route half petabyte of network traffic and is expected to reach 1 PB by the end of this year.