5 ms·

Is there anything special going on in Germany atm to prompt this? I‘m slighlty confused why they would do such a poll…

neverrroot 4y ago
Yes, a lot of pressure from the leftist government. Many channels opposing the German Covid policy (one of a kind in Europe, very strict) are to be found in Telegram. As always, there is also some German right in Telegram. The government is officially after them, but the media/government has been painting all those opposing the Covid measures as right, so… it’s tricky.
- bowsamic 4y ago
  > (one of a kind in Europe, very strict) This is wrong. The German COVID policy is not strict at all. There is a 5 day isolation if you test positive, and you usually have to wear a mask on public transport. That's literally it.
  - neverrroot 4y ago
    Compare it for the whole of 2022. Also still in Germany, some people can/will lose their job if they don’t take the jab. Now I’m not affected by this, but my sister was. She decided to move country instead of getting vaccinated again.
    - bowsamic 4y ago
      > Compare it for the whole of 2022 Why should I do that?
- BurningPenguin 4y ago
  > but the media/government has been painting all those opposing the Covid measures as right Idk about you, but waving flags of the German Reich, following known Neo-Nazis and attending events of far-right organizations, while spreading lies and slogans that originate from right-wing conspiracy theorists, seems kinda right-wingy to me.
  - neverrroot 4y ago
    Never claim there are no such people. But to try to paint a picture as e.g. most of mainstream media did and some still do, that only such kind of people protest the measures etc. is not correct.
    - mr_mitm 4y ago
      I remember lots of documentations on TV and interviews with social scientists that emphasize that the Covid protests in Germany are weirdly originating from a very broad spectrum, with lots of alternative and esoteric groups, which aren't right wing at all. The Verfassungsschutz even had to invent a new category: https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/verfassungsschutz-querdenker-103.html https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/verfassungsschutz-querdenke... Some examples of mainstream media that emphasize the heterogeneous nature of these protests: https://www.tagesschau.de/faktenfinder/esoterik-impfgegner-corona-101.html https://www.tagesschau.de/faktenfinder/esoterik-impfgegner-c... https://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/mensch/corona-demonstrationen-ein-dialog-ist-dann-nicht-mehr-moeglich-a-1db7a796-988a-42ed-a922-1c4861aacf37 https://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/mensch/corona-demonstrat... https://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/corona-demos-zwischen-hippies-und-neonazis-1.5015129 https://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/corona-demos-zwischen-hi... https://www.rnd.de/panorama/esoteriker-auf-corona-demos-tanzende-hippies-neben-rechtsextremen-und-verschworungstheoretikern-was-will-sie-esoterikszene-QMRYIWRQLNCP5N5GGWMK7V53LM.html https://www.rnd.de/panorama/esoteriker-auf-corona-demos-tanz... https://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/corona-proteste-querdenker-im-suedwesten-haben-linke-wurzeln-17647165.html https://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/corona-proteste-q... So I don't think your assessment is fair.
      - hef19898 4y ago
        I also remember analysis that this broad spectrum was circumvented, and heavily influenced by the far right.
        mr_mitm 4y ago
        Well, then post some sources.
- hef19898 4y ago
  You do know that the "leftist" government came to power last year? And that the Merkel-CDU-conservative led government that put those "harsh" measures in place? And that the oeftist government coalition includes the FDP, liberals whose economic positions are almost GOP like?
cabirum 4y ago
Germany repeatedly threanened to ban or remove Telegram from app stores if they ignore requests to delete channels or to provide some data. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wired.com/story/germany-telegram-covid/amp https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wired.com/story/germany-tel...
- londons_explore 4y ago
  If I were in telegrams position, I would move this power to 'moderators' rather like Reddit. Then tell the government that if they want to use a court order to remove content, they need to request that the independent moderators of the channel do it.
  - detaro 4y ago
    Why would any court or government care about Telegram/Reddit saying that?
    - londons_explore 4y ago
      Well they would redesign systems so that they don't have any visibility into message or channel contents, and if they are notified of a channel with bad content, they would just say 'contact the moderator of the channel'. Rather like ISP's today aren't responsible for the web pages they deliver - the HTTPS encryption means they couldn't scan or block them even if they wanted to.
      - j16sdiz 4y ago
        But then they will make it illegal to provide these services and jail the telegram team instead.
      - 7steps2much 4y ago
        > Rather like ISP's today aren't responsible for the web pages they deliver - the HTTPS encryption means they couldn't scan or block them even if they wanted to. ISP's can be required to in fact not deliver certain webpages, usually for copyright reasons. If Telegram redesigns its system like you suggested the courts may just shift to: Do not broadcast, transmit or make available the channel with the ID XYZ. The channel might not be deleted of course, but if it's no longer accessible that would be essentially the same.
funnym0nk3y 4y ago
Telegram is considered a platform for people, which do not respect the basic values of democracy like groups far right expressing xenophobia and groups which think (and express loudly) of the COVID measures as repression by some elite against the common citizen. Most of them whish for a autoritarian government. Groups which act against the constitution are observed by the Verfassungsschutz, an authority to protect the democracy and constitution in Germany. On telegram those extreme thoughts can be shared whithin their bubble which catalysts them. I don't know if this is the majority of users of Telegram (probably not), but it is strongly associated with them. Those are the things I gathered by lightly consuming news. Maybe this is some kind of preparation for winter, where COVID cases are expected to rise in combination with very high energy prices.
- dgellow 4y ago
  The „funny“ thing is that they discuss anti-democratic topics in public, open groups and channels. They are for the vast majority completely technologically illiterate and somehow associate Telegram with secrecy. But they are in fact publicly broadcasting their wishes to reverse authorities. Any investigators can just join a group and see almost everything they are planning out loud.
- neverrroot 4y ago
  On the surface you are correct, this is especially the painted picture by the mass media and at least partially by the government (who also sought banning Telegram entirely in Germany). If you go deeper, you get to see that also a lot of human rights activists and NGOs are using it. Have been using Telegram since 2015, and in the meantime, most of my IT buddies use it and/or Signal.
  - formerly_proven 4y ago
    With the invasion of Ukraine it seems like 95 % of the information out of Ukraine flows through Telegram (I'm not a user myself but the watermark and screenshots of the app are everywhere). Telegram also has some ~700 million monthly active users - it seems unlikely to me that there are even 700 million alt-right people in the entire world.
z02d 4y ago
Yes, see the German article: Gouvernment and Developer conflict about free speech, cyber bullying,, ... . https://www.golem.de/news/an-die-polizei-telegram-bittet-nutzer-um-meinung-zu-datenuebermittlung-2208-167959.html https://www.golem.de/news/an-die-polizei-telegram-bittet-nut...
- traspler 4y ago
  Thanks a lot! This is what I was looking for.

Yes, a lot of pressure from the leftist government. Many channels opposing the German Covid policy (one of a kind in Europe, very strict) are to be found in Telegram. As always, there is also some German right in Telegram. The government is officially after them, but the media/government has been painting all those opposing the Covid measures as right, so… it’s tricky.

bowsamic 4y ago
> (one of a kind in Europe, very strict) This is wrong. The German COVID policy is not strict at all. There is a 5 day isolation if you test positive, and you usually have to wear a mask on public transport. That's literally it.
- neverrroot 4y ago
  Compare it for the whole of 2022. Also still in Germany, some people can/will lose their job if they don’t take the jab. Now I’m not affected by this, but my sister was. She decided to move country instead of getting vaccinated again.
  - bowsamic 4y ago
    > Compare it for the whole of 2022 Why should I do that?
BurningPenguin 4y ago
> but the media/government has been painting all those opposing the Covid measures as right Idk about you, but waving flags of the German Reich, following known Neo-Nazis and attending events of far-right organizations, while spreading lies and slogans that originate from right-wing conspiracy theorists, seems kinda right-wingy to me.
- neverrroot 4y ago
  Never claim there are no such people. But to try to paint a picture as e.g. most of mainstream media did and some still do, that only such kind of people protest the measures etc. is not correct.
  - mr_mitm 4y ago
    I remember lots of documentations on TV and interviews with social scientists that emphasize that the Covid protests in Germany are weirdly originating from a very broad spectrum, with lots of alternative and esoteric groups, which aren't right wing at all. The Verfassungsschutz even had to invent a new category: https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/verfassungsschutz-querdenker-103.html https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/verfassungsschutz-querdenke... Some examples of mainstream media that emphasize the heterogeneous nature of these protests: https://www.tagesschau.de/faktenfinder/esoterik-impfgegner-corona-101.html https://www.tagesschau.de/faktenfinder/esoterik-impfgegner-c... https://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/mensch/corona-demonstrationen-ein-dialog-ist-dann-nicht-mehr-moeglich-a-1db7a796-988a-42ed-a922-1c4861aacf37 https://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/mensch/corona-demonstrat... https://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/corona-demos-zwischen-hippies-und-neonazis-1.5015129 https://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/corona-demos-zwischen-hi... https://www.rnd.de/panorama/esoteriker-auf-corona-demos-tanzende-hippies-neben-rechtsextremen-und-verschworungstheoretikern-was-will-sie-esoterikszene-QMRYIWRQLNCP5N5GGWMK7V53LM.html https://www.rnd.de/panorama/esoteriker-auf-corona-demos-tanz... https://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/corona-proteste-querdenker-im-suedwesten-haben-linke-wurzeln-17647165.html https://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/corona-proteste-q... So I don't think your assessment is fair.
    - hef19898 4y ago
      I also remember analysis that this broad spectrum was circumvented, and heavily influenced by the far right.
      - mr_mitm 4y ago
        Well, then post some sources.
hef19898 4y ago
You do know that the "leftist" government came to power last year? And that the Merkel-CDU-conservative led government that put those "harsh" measures in place? And that the oeftist government coalition includes the FDP, liberals whose economic positions are almost GOP like?

cabirum 4y ago

Germany repeatedly threanened to ban or remove Telegram from app stores if they ignore requests to delete channels or to provide some data. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wired.com/story/germany-telegram-covid/amp https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wired.com/story/germany-tel...

londons_explore 4y ago
If I were in telegrams position, I would move this power to 'moderators' rather like Reddit. Then tell the government that if they want to use a court order to remove content, they need to request that the independent moderators of the channel do it.
- detaro 4y ago
  Why would any court or government care about Telegram/Reddit saying that?
  - londons_explore 4y ago
    Well they would redesign systems so that they don't have any visibility into message or channel contents, and if they are notified of a channel with bad content, they would just say 'contact the moderator of the channel'. Rather like ISP's today aren't responsible for the web pages they deliver - the HTTPS encryption means they couldn't scan or block them even if they wanted to.
    - j16sdiz 4y ago
      But then they will make it illegal to provide these services and jail the telegram team instead.
    - 7steps2much 4y ago
      > Rather like ISP's today aren't responsible for the web pages they deliver - the HTTPS encryption means they couldn't scan or block them even if they wanted to. ISP's can be required to in fact not deliver certain webpages, usually for copyright reasons. If Telegram redesigns its system like you suggested the courts may just shift to: Do not broadcast, transmit or make available the channel with the ID XYZ. The channel might not be deleted of course, but if it's no longer accessible that would be essentially the same.

funnym0nk3y 4y ago

Telegram is considered a platform for people, which do not respect the basic values of democracy like groups far right expressing xenophobia and groups which think (and express loudly) of the COVID measures as repression by some elite against the common citizen. Most of them whish for a autoritarian government. Groups which act against the constitution are observed by the Verfassungsschutz, an authority to protect the democracy and constitution in Germany. On telegram those extreme thoughts can be shared whithin their bubble which catalysts them. I don't know if this is the majority of users of Telegram (probably not), but it is strongly associated with them. Those are the things I gathered by lightly consuming news. Maybe this is some kind of preparation for winter, where COVID cases are expected to rise in combination with very high energy prices.

dgellow 4y ago
The „funny“ thing is that they discuss anti-democratic topics in public, open groups and channels. They are for the vast majority completely technologically illiterate and somehow associate Telegram with secrecy. But they are in fact publicly broadcasting their wishes to reverse authorities. Any investigators can just join a group and see almost everything they are planning out loud.
neverrroot 4y ago
On the surface you are correct, this is especially the painted picture by the mass media and at least partially by the government (who also sought banning Telegram entirely in Germany). If you go deeper, you get to see that also a lot of human rights activists and NGOs are using it. Have been using Telegram since 2015, and in the meantime, most of my IT buddies use it and/or Signal.
- formerly_proven 4y ago
  With the invasion of Ukraine it seems like 95 % of the information out of Ukraine flows through Telegram (I'm not a user myself but the watermark and screenshots of the app are everywhere). Telegram also has some ~700 million monthly active users - it seems unlikely to me that there are even 700 million alt-right people in the entire world.

z02d 4y ago

Yes, see the German article: Gouvernment and Developer conflict about free speech, cyber bullying,, ... . https://www.golem.de/news/an-die-polizei-telegram-bittet-nutzer-um-meinung-zu-datenuebermittlung-2208-167959.html https://www.golem.de/news/an-die-polizei-telegram-bittet-nut...

traspler 4y ago
Thanks a lot! This is what I was looking for.