6 ms·

Is effort a myth?

96 points by bdfh42 18y ago

portfolioexec 18y ago
I agree with this guy: I think you make your own luck. If you take aggregate effort in a community and average it out, then there's an equal probability of that special event happening to anyone. If however you are that person who puts in the extra effort and brings up the average, you are turning the odds in your favour and increasing the likelihood that the special event actually happens to you. Think of it as everyone buying one lottery ticket, but you buy more than one... your odds of success are proportional to the effort you've put in. Thoughts?
dazzawazza 18y ago
People have little faith in effort because they feel it's too easy to be labelled a failure. For example if you spend months studying only to fail a course there is no one to blame but you. If you don't study in the first place and blame society, genes or circumstances then you are blameless. You were dealt a bad hand, luck isn't on your side... I'm sure you've spoken and heard these words. This isn't to say that society, genes or circumstances DON'T effect outcome (in a myriad of complex overlapping ways) but they have become scape goats for many peoples lack of endeavour in life.
- deleted 18y ago
  [deleted]
- qwph 18y ago
  For example if you spend months studying only to fail a course there is no one to blame but you. In that situation, I think you should retake the course at the first opportunity, and keep retaking it until you pass. There's a difference between failing and giving up.
  - whacked_new 18y ago
    I really like this mentality, but 1. society does not, 2. time does not, 3. time does not. But in a happy world, I would swear by this sentiment.
    - qwph 18y ago
      Hey, you've got all the time in the world. If you never put yourself in a position where you can fail, you can't ever grow.
    - whacked_new 18y ago
      er... oops, 3. was meant to be "money does not"
      - qwph 18y ago
        Learn to fail privately, quickly and cheaply? ;) Less flippantly, if you don't do something because you think you won't succeed, then there's no chance of you succeeding. If you try something, don't succeed, learn from the experience and try again, there's a chance that you may succeed.
  - m_eiman 18y ago
    Agreed, like someone smart probably said at one time or another: "I haven't failed, I've just found a hundred solutions that don't work".
- orib 18y ago
  That's what bothers me. What's wrong with trying your best and then failing? I think that's better than not trying at all. I don't see any shame in it, and I'd rather see people stretching their limits even if they're not sure of success. Sure, you'll fail often. Occasionally you'll fail hard. Get up, dust yourself off, decide whether it's worth trying again, and move on. Even failing at something worthwhile will make you a better person than not having tried at all. Fear of being labelled a failure is a horrible thing.
  - yters 18y ago
    Who likes to be 2nd best? Sure, there's a sense of personal fulfillment, but most people also care about social prestige.
- yters 18y ago
  Also, it feels better to think that you could have been great if you had just made more of an effort than to know you can't hack it.
13ren 18y ago
One's beliefs about whether intelligence is fixed or malleable is a factor that affects how much effort one makes, according to these studies: http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=the-secret-to-raising-smart-kids http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=the-secret-to-raising-sm...
- Alex3917 18y ago
  What's actually more important, and more apropos, is whether you have an internal or external locus of control. Attributing outcomes to intelligence is just one factor that tends to externalize that locus.
  - deleted 18y ago
    [deleted]
  - yters 18y ago
    That's why it is so bad there are so many authoritative forces telling us we don't have free will.
run4yourlives 18y ago
Surprisingly, this is actually a pretty good article. I like is little 120 minute idea.
- Retric 18y ago
  It's not a bad list, but IMO it's still missing the point. I was just promoted to "Senior Consultant" not because I worked really hard, instead I worked 40 hours a week and focused on doing the kinds of things they cared about. 4 years ago I was making a lot less money and working a lot harder and longer, because I failed to work hard on the right sorts of things. I think maximizing the return on effort is something few geeks do and while it can be fun to pull an allnighter fixing buggy networking code, it's not going to help the rest of your life because chances are nobody at the next job is going to care. Go home, get some sleep, tomorrow you can become the well rested hero. "Luck" is often more about noticing opportunity than anything else. The are probably millions of ways you could get enough money to retire in 7 years, but noticing them requires an open mind. PS: When your 4x as productive as the next guy you don't need to stay up late to get ahead. It's still an option if your trying to become rich but there is little value in doing that for someone else.
  - Hexstream 18y ago
    "PS: When your 4x as productive as the next guy you don't need to stay up late to get ahead. It's still an option if your trying to become rich but there is little value in doing that for someone else." ... Use "you're" when you mean "you are".
    - LPTS 18y ago
      Use "you are." instead of "'you are'." For example: If your a grammar police, you are annoying when you say "use 'you're' when you mean 'you are.'"
  - ojbyrne 18y ago
    I've observed that people who work minimum wage (or close to it) work a heck of a lot harder than the rest of us.
deleted 18y ago
[deleted]
gwsaines 18y ago
I agree with dazzawazza, the fear of being "that guy" that tries really hard only to fail spectacularly is hard to avoid. Honestly, in my work I have found that working hard and being diligent often produces "lucky" circumstances. I hate that old saying about challenges being opportunities in disguise, but so far it's proven true for me. I read an article a while back on YC about the virtue of failing spectacularly. I couldn't find it searchyc.com (maybe someone else can find it?), but the gist was that it's far more noble to try your hardest and fail in as grandiose way as possible. I like that idea because it seems more alive and pure, but I certainly hope my startup doesn't end up like that. :)
zandorg 18y ago
A good article. I wonder if inspiration counts as luck? His advice to read non-fiction contributes to inspiration, however.
- arockwell 18y ago
  You don't (usually) get inspired sitting on your ass doing nothing, so I wouldn't count inspiration as luck.
JesseAldridge 18y ago
In the software world, if you're exerting a lot of effort, you're probably doing it wrong. Increasing your productivity by a factor of 100 in normal, real world work is not something that happens very often due to physical limitations. But in the software world, where you can rewrite the basic laws that govern you, gains like this are a lot more attainable. In the physical world you have to work hard and you have to work smart. But in the software world, working smart is much, much more important.
- briancooley 18y ago
  In that case, putting in extra effort would be learning how to build better tools (or in your terminology, craft better basic laws).
lsc 18y ago
effort is necessary but not sufficient. You need to put effort into areas where you can improve. As a child I wasted years learning how to write by hand. I still can not write legibly. Continuing down that path would be a waste, even if the skill wasn't completely obsolete. there are traps like this everywhere. You need to recognize areas where effort isn't bringing you returns, and somehow reorganize your life so that you don't have to do those things. find someone who isn't good at something you are good at, and vis-a-vis and trade. (this becomes much easier once you can hire people.)
tdavis 18y ago
If you somehow pulled this off, then six months from now, you would be the fittest, best rested, most intelligent, best funded and motivated person in your office or your field. You would know how to do things other people don't, you'd have a wider network and you'd be more focused. What if you just want to chill and watch TV all day? I think the last thing people need is more advice on how to reduce fun in their lives and replace it with work, especially under the guise of "becoming successful." If you're 40 years old, have no job and live at home and you're completely happy with that, I would consider you a success. The worst part about society is the fact that it creates arbitrary tiers where you must reach to be "better" or "more successful" or some other meaningless vapid term. Then it goes further, like this article, and defines "good" stuff you should do that will help you be "successful" or just "happier." I have no plans to follow most of these suggestions for all kinds of reasons... lets see... I hate writing thank-you notes, speaking, volunteering and spending a weekend with people I could be caught up with in an afternoon. Do what makes you happy. Define your own success. Stop taking canned advice about life from people who know nothing about yours. Make your own damn decisions. I work a ton because I love it, not so I can die with more money or feel better than the next guy. Do whatever makes you feel good and the rest will work itself out. Edit: Quick clarification. If this were an article about how to be more fit, rested, intelligent, funded and motivated for the sake of those things, then I would totally endorse it. But if you really wanted to be all those things, you'd be doing that stuff already because it's pretty damn obvious. You wouldn't be wasting those 120 minutes on stuff that wasn't making you happy; you'd replace that stuff with other stuff that made you happy. Pretty straight forward.
- rthomas6 18y ago
  "You wouldn't be wasting those 120 minutes on stuff that wasn't making you happy; you'd replace that stuff with other stuff that made you happy. Pretty straight forward." As a talented procastinator who is occasionally lazy, this is not always the case for me. Many times I will spend my time doing things that make me happier in the short term but less satisfied in the long term. Articles like this do a good job of motivating me.
  - tdavis 18y ago
jameson541 18y ago
Hardwork is essential.If you studied the course perfectly and write the exam then you will pass definately.If you doesn't write exam well,then the result is fail,you must blame yourself for any result ie.. success or failure.so we must not believe myth. ============================================================== jameson http://www.crystalrecovery.com http://www.crystalrecovery.com

96 points by bdfh42 18y ago

I agree with this guy: I think you make your own luck. If you take aggregate effort in a community and average it out, then there's an equal probability of that special event happening to anyone. If however you are that person who puts in the extra effort and brings up the average, you are turning the odds in your favour and increasing the likelihood that the special event actually happens to you. Think of it as everyone buying one lottery ticket, but you buy more than one... your odds of success are proportional to the effort you've put in. Thoughts?

dazzawazza 18y ago

People have little faith in effort because they feel it's too easy to be labelled a failure. For example if you spend months studying only to fail a course there is no one to blame but you. If you don't study in the first place and blame society, genes or circumstances then you are blameless. You were dealt a bad hand, luck isn't on your side... I'm sure you've spoken and heard these words. This isn't to say that society, genes or circumstances DON'T effect outcome (in a myriad of complex overlapping ways) but they have become scape goats for many peoples lack of endeavour in life.

deleted 18y ago
[deleted]
qwph 18y ago
For example if you spend months studying only to fail a course there is no one to blame but you. In that situation, I think you should retake the course at the first opportunity, and keep retaking it until you pass. There's a difference between failing and giving up.
- whacked_new 18y ago
  I really like this mentality, but 1. society does not, 2. time does not, 3. time does not. But in a happy world, I would swear by this sentiment.
  - qwph 18y ago
    Hey, you've got all the time in the world. If you never put yourself in a position where you can fail, you can't ever grow.
  - whacked_new 18y ago
    er... oops, 3. was meant to be "money does not"
    - qwph 18y ago
      Learn to fail privately, quickly and cheaply? ;) Less flippantly, if you don't do something because you think you won't succeed, then there's no chance of you succeeding. If you try something, don't succeed, learn from the experience and try again, there's a chance that you may succeed.
- m_eiman 18y ago
  Agreed, like someone smart probably said at one time or another: "I haven't failed, I've just found a hundred solutions that don't work".
orib 18y ago
That's what bothers me. What's wrong with trying your best and then failing? I think that's better than not trying at all. I don't see any shame in it, and I'd rather see people stretching their limits even if they're not sure of success. Sure, you'll fail often. Occasionally you'll fail hard. Get up, dust yourself off, decide whether it's worth trying again, and move on. Even failing at something worthwhile will make you a better person than not having tried at all. Fear of being labelled a failure is a horrible thing.
- yters 18y ago
  Who likes to be 2nd best? Sure, there's a sense of personal fulfillment, but most people also care about social prestige.
yters 18y ago
Also, it feels better to think that you could have been great if you had just made more of an effort than to know you can't hack it.

13ren 18y ago

One's beliefs about whether intelligence is fixed or malleable is a factor that affects how much effort one makes, according to these studies: http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=the-secret-to-raising-smart-kids http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=the-secret-to-raising-sm...

Alex3917 18y ago
What's actually more important, and more apropos, is whether you have an internal or external locus of control. Attributing outcomes to intelligence is just one factor that tends to externalize that locus.
- deleted 18y ago
  [deleted]
- yters 18y ago
  That's why it is so bad there are so many authoritative forces telling us we don't have free will.

run4yourlives 18y ago

Surprisingly, this is actually a pretty good article. I like is little 120 minute idea.

Retric 18y ago
It's not a bad list, but IMO it's still missing the point. I was just promoted to "Senior Consultant" not because I worked really hard, instead I worked 40 hours a week and focused on doing the kinds of things they cared about. 4 years ago I was making a lot less money and working a lot harder and longer, because I failed to work hard on the right sorts of things. I think maximizing the return on effort is something few geeks do and while it can be fun to pull an allnighter fixing buggy networking code, it's not going to help the rest of your life because chances are nobody at the next job is going to care. Go home, get some sleep, tomorrow you can become the well rested hero. "Luck" is often more about noticing opportunity than anything else. The are probably millions of ways you could get enough money to retire in 7 years, but noticing them requires an open mind. PS: When your 4x as productive as the next guy you don't need to stay up late to get ahead. It's still an option if your trying to become rich but there is little value in doing that for someone else.
- Hexstream 18y ago
  "PS: When your 4x as productive as the next guy you don't need to stay up late to get ahead. It's still an option if your trying to become rich but there is little value in doing that for someone else." ... Use "you're" when you mean "you are".
  - LPTS 18y ago
    Use "you are." instead of "'you are'." For example: If your a grammar police, you are annoying when you say "use 'you're' when you mean 'you are.'"
- ojbyrne 18y ago
  I've observed that people who work minimum wage (or close to it) work a heck of a lot harder than the rest of us.

deleted 18y ago

[deleted]

gwsaines 18y ago

I agree with dazzawazza, the fear of being "that guy" that tries really hard only to fail spectacularly is hard to avoid. Honestly, in my work I have found that working hard and being diligent often produces "lucky" circumstances. I hate that old saying about challenges being opportunities in disguise, but so far it's proven true for me. I read an article a while back on YC about the virtue of failing spectacularly. I couldn't find it searchyc.com (maybe someone else can find it?), but the gist was that it's far more noble to try your hardest and fail in as grandiose way as possible. I like that idea because it seems more alive and pure, but I certainly hope my startup doesn't end up like that. :)

zandorg 18y ago

A good article. I wonder if inspiration counts as luck? His advice to read non-fiction contributes to inspiration, however.

arockwell 18y ago
You don't (usually) get inspired sitting on your ass doing nothing, so I wouldn't count inspiration as luck.

JesseAldridge 18y ago

In the software world, if you're exerting a lot of effort, you're probably doing it wrong. Increasing your productivity by a factor of 100 in normal, real world work is not something that happens very often due to physical limitations. But in the software world, where you can rewrite the basic laws that govern you, gains like this are a lot more attainable. In the physical world you have to work hard and you have to work smart. But in the software world, working smart is much, much more important.

briancooley 18y ago
In that case, putting in extra effort would be learning how to build better tools (or in your terminology, craft better basic laws).

lsc 18y ago

effort is necessary but not sufficient. You need to put effort into areas where you can improve. As a child I wasted years learning how to write by hand. I still can not write legibly. Continuing down that path would be a waste, even if the skill wasn't completely obsolete. there are traps like this everywhere. You need to recognize areas where effort isn't bringing you returns, and somehow reorganize your life so that you don't have to do those things. find someone who isn't good at something you are good at, and vis-a-vis and trade. (this becomes much easier once you can hire people.)

tdavis 18y ago

If you somehow pulled this off, then six months from now, you would be the fittest, best rested, most intelligent, best funded and motivated person in your office or your field. You would know how to do things other people don't, you'd have a wider network and you'd be more focused. What if you just want to chill and watch TV all day? I think the last thing people need is more advice on how to reduce fun in their lives and replace it with work, especially under the guise of "becoming successful." If you're 40 years old, have no job and live at home and you're completely happy with that, I would consider you a success. The worst part about society is the fact that it creates arbitrary tiers where you must reach to be "better" or "more successful" or some other meaningless vapid term. Then it goes further, like this article, and defines "good" stuff you should do that will help you be "successful" or just "happier." I have no plans to follow most of these suggestions for all kinds of reasons... lets see... I hate writing thank-you notes, speaking, volunteering and spending a weekend with people I could be caught up with in an afternoon. Do what makes you happy. Define your own success. Stop taking canned advice about life from people who know nothing about yours. Make your own damn decisions. I work a ton because I love it, not so I can die with more money or feel better than the next guy. Do whatever makes you feel good and the rest will work itself out. Edit: Quick clarification. If this were an article about how to be more fit, rested, intelligent, funded and motivated for the sake of those things, then I would totally endorse it. But if you really wanted to be all those things, you'd be doing that stuff already because it's pretty damn obvious. You wouldn't be wasting those 120 minutes on stuff that wasn't making you happy; you'd replace that stuff with other stuff that made you happy. Pretty straight forward.

rthomas6 18y ago
"You wouldn't be wasting those 120 minutes on stuff that wasn't making you happy; you'd replace that stuff with other stuff that made you happy. Pretty straight forward." As a talented procastinator who is occasionally lazy, this is not always the case for me. Many times I will spend my time doing things that make me happier in the short term but less satisfied in the long term. Articles like this do a good job of motivating me.
- tdavis 18y ago

jameson541 18y ago

Hardwork is essential.If you studied the course perfectly and write the exam then you will pass definately.If you doesn't write exam well,then the result is fail,you must blame yourself for any result ie.. success or failure.so we must not believe myth. ============================================================== jameson http://www.crystalrecovery.com http://www.crystalrecovery.com