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>>> The need to appease the public immediately seems to have done just as much pain to EU as Russia. Interesting way to frame the issue. FWIW, I would have gon

>>> The need to appease the public immediately seems to have done just as much pain to EU as Russia. Interesting way to frame the issue. FWIW, I would have gone with "the need to inflict actual repercussions on Russia for invading a neighbor and slaughtering civilians." Not hard to believe the European public takes issue with that, so close to home.

senttoschool 4y ago
- mentalpiracy 4y ago
  >> So isn't all this pain simply because Ukraine's leader (maybe backed by US?) didn't budge until too late? Flatly, no, it is not.
  - senttoschool 4y ago
    >Flatly, no, it is not. https://www.npr.org/2022/01/12/1072413634/russia-nato-ukraine https://www.npr.org/2022/01/12/1072413634/russia-nato-ukrain... https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20220308-in-nod-to-russia-ukraine-says-no-longer-insisting-on-nato-membership https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20220308-in-nod-to-rus...
    - verdverm 4y ago
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylaC0MUleZs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylaC0MUleZs
  - hahaitsfunny 4y ago
- Yiin 4y ago
  Even if that was true (it's not and there are multiple facts that contradicts that theory, but it's not related), how does following situation: "Don't try get protection or we will attack you" considers protection is attacked makes the attacker reasonable in your eyes? Being submissive to oppressor literally never worked well for any country in the history of the world and only shows clear examples how it only makes things worse (ww2 wasn't even that long ago).
  - senttoschool 4y ago
    - verdverm 4y ago
      Why does Russia get to have a say about Ukraine's alliances? Or any other country's for that matter?
      - senttoschool 4y ago
        Same reason why US wants to have a say about other countries' alliances and leaders: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r... I know you've accused me of being anti-West/US in another thread. I replied to it even though your comment was deleted. I spelled out my stance very clearly there.
        verdverm 4y ago
        two wrongs don't make a right, there is no justification for either doing so
        senttoschool 4y ago
        Sure, two wrongs don't make it right. But you can see where your reasoning is a double standard?
- _kbh_ 4y ago
  > I fear that this conversation will take a drastic turn. But my view is that Russia invaded because Ukraine wouldn't backdown from joining NATO. After Russia invaded, Ukraine said it won't join NATO if Russia stopped the war. So isn't all this pain simply because Ukraine's leader (maybe backed by US?) didn't budge until too late? Your view is entirely incorrect, we could argue all day about the different thing that Russia has used to justify its genocide of the Ukrainian people but we will never know if any of it's true because Russia will have another brand new reason tomorrow. I do find it interesting that the initial invasion happened very soon after substantial energy deposits where found in the Donbas, which had a chance to knock out some of Russias dominance of the European energy market.

senttoschool 4y ago

mentalpiracy 4y ago
>> So isn't all this pain simply because Ukraine's leader (maybe backed by US?) didn't budge until too late? Flatly, no, it is not.
- senttoschool 4y ago
  >Flatly, no, it is not. https://www.npr.org/2022/01/12/1072413634/russia-nato-ukraine https://www.npr.org/2022/01/12/1072413634/russia-nato-ukrain... https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20220308-in-nod-to-russia-ukraine-says-no-longer-insisting-on-nato-membership https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20220308-in-nod-to-rus...
  - verdverm 4y ago
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylaC0MUleZs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylaC0MUleZs
- hahaitsfunny 4y ago
Yiin 4y ago
Even if that was true (it's not and there are multiple facts that contradicts that theory, but it's not related), how does following situation: "Don't try get protection or we will attack you" considers protection is attacked makes the attacker reasonable in your eyes? Being submissive to oppressor literally never worked well for any country in the history of the world and only shows clear examples how it only makes things worse (ww2 wasn't even that long ago).
- senttoschool 4y ago
  - verdverm 4y ago
    Why does Russia get to have a say about Ukraine's alliances? Or any other country's for that matter?
    - senttoschool 4y ago
      Same reason why US wants to have a say about other countries' alliances and leaders: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r... I know you've accused me of being anti-West/US in another thread. I replied to it even though your comment was deleted. I spelled out my stance very clearly there.
      - verdverm 4y ago
        two wrongs don't make a right, there is no justification for either doing so
        senttoschool 4y ago
        Sure, two wrongs don't make it right. But you can see where your reasoning is a double standard?
_kbh_ 4y ago
> I fear that this conversation will take a drastic turn. But my view is that Russia invaded because Ukraine wouldn't backdown from joining NATO. After Russia invaded, Ukraine said it won't join NATO if Russia stopped the war. So isn't all this pain simply because Ukraine's leader (maybe backed by US?) didn't budge until too late? Your view is entirely incorrect, we could argue all day about the different thing that Russia has used to justify its genocide of the Ukrainian people but we will never know if any of it's true because Russia will have another brand new reason tomorrow. I do find it interesting that the initial invasion happened very soon after substantial energy deposits where found in the Donbas, which had a chance to knock out some of Russias dominance of the European energy market.