6 ms·

Liblime seeks trademark for an open source product created by an NZ library

64 points by Tsagadai 15y ago

gluejar 15y ago
The title here misrepresents the article. It doesn't say the New Zealand library is being sued. On the contrary, the article says they are raising money to oppose a trademark application.
- Tsagadai 15y ago
  It wasn't my intention to be misleading, I just misread. I've updated the link.
  - gluejar 15y ago
    Thanks, it helps the cause to stick to the facts.
chappi42 15y ago
from the article: "The situation we find ourselves in, is that after over a year of battling against it, PTFS/Liblime have managed to have their application for a Trademark on Koha in New Zealand accepted. We now have 3 months to object, but to do so involves lawyers and money. We are a small semi rural Library in New Zealand and have no cash spare in our operational budget to afford this, but we do feel it is something we must fight. For the library that invented Koha to now have to have a legal battle to prevent a US company trademarking the word in NZ seems bizarre, but it is at this point that we find ourselves."
spectre 15y ago
I'm surprised the Maori Advisory Board of the Intellectual Property Office hasn't blocked this on the grounds that 'koha' is a Te Reo Maori word (translated as gift or offering). They tend to be highly protective of the language as it's considered to be taonga (treasure).
- metel 15y ago
  I'd be surprised if it turned out they had any say in the matter. Imagine if the proud and venerable Brî'tíšh people had the power to block the usage of such words as "Windows" to describe a software product.
  - aptwebapps 15y ago
    Usage is one thing, trademark is another. And what pertains in the British Isles does necessarily pertain in New Zealand.
1point2 15y ago
More appropriate for Reddit - however being a Kiwi (and someone who once had a trademark problem) I find it amazing the Maori Advisory Board had no problem (I think 'shame on them') and wonder why they did not object. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koha_(custom) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koha_(custom) seems to be a common enough term.
helmut_hed 15y ago
I'd like to hear more about this from the other side. Someone on the original thread has commented to the effect that the library permitted the contractor ("Katipo"?) who wrote the software in the first place to sell the IP to the people who are seeking the trademark... No idea if that's true, of course, and really, why try to trademark it in the place it came from? But still, I'd like to know more.
- _kate_ 15y ago
  There's a long, convoluted history of issues between the Koha community and Liblime over community 'assets', some of which is summarised here: http://lwn.net/Articles/386284/ http://lwn.net/Articles/386284/ LibLime acquired the Koha portions of Katipo Communications back in 2007, including the koha.org domain name and other assets. The Koha community subsequently had to move to koha-community.org.
  - ow1n 15y ago
    "Had to" because Liblime stopped sharing access to the site, something which they had promised to do when taking over maintenance of it (get it in writing next time). Koha.org now exclusively promotes Liblime's non-open fork of Koha.
    - obelos 15y ago
      PTFS/LibLime's "non-open fork" of Koha is available on Github: https://github.com/liblime/LibLime-Koha https://github.com/liblime/LibLime-Koha. We gratefully accept pull requests and bug reports there, as well. We're pushing yet another release there next week. Shortly after the acquisition of LibLime, PTFS offered up the koha.org domain for sale to several community members, including HLT and other vendors, as a means of hopefully rectifying the relationship with them. No one bit, so we've retained it.
      - samich 15y ago
        Citation needed, can you point to evidence of this? Also ... this has nothing do with Liblime trying to trademark Koha in NZ.
nl 15y ago
I found this, from January 2010 (note the "including the US trademark"): LibLime (which is actually a trade name of Columbus, Ohio based Metavore, Inc.) was started in 2005 by Joshua Ferraro, Tina Berger and two others. LibLime has been the hardest-charging and fastest-growing proponent of the Koha Library System in the world. Over the intervening years, LibLime has acquired key Koha-related assets, including the US trademark, copyrights to Koha source code, and the Koha website. The combination of PTFS and LibLime will be supporting 640 installations of Koha under 123 contracts http://go-to-hellman.blogspot.com/2010/01/ptfs-to-acquire-liblime-and-move-to.html http://go-to-hellman.blogspot.com/2010/01/ptfs-to-acquire-li... If that was in 2010, why is it a big issue now?
- samich 15y ago
  Because this is about the NZ trademark. http://elliottbledsoe.com/2011/11/keep-koha-trademark-open-source/ http://elliottbledsoe.com/2011/11/keep-koha-trademark-open-s...
  - nl 15y ago
    Yes, but why does that matter? I understand that the author is from NZ, and the software originated there, but surely the time to object was when the original (presumably US?) trademark was issued? Or at least some outrage could have been expressed at that point?
    - archangel_one 15y ago
      How are the Horowhenua Library Trust meant to know when the US trademark is issued? I can't imagine they're keeping an extremely close eye on all the trademarks being issued over there.
      - nl 15y ago
        The author of the blog post clearly follows the field.
        15y ago
tingletech 15y ago
some more info on the backstory is on wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LibLime http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LibLime
- tingletech 15y ago
  see also more discussion on code4lib listserv http://serials.infomotions.com/code4lib/archive/2011/201111/2720.html http://serials.infomotions.com/code4lib/archive/2011/201111/... and http://serials.infomotions.com/code4lib/archive/2011/201111/thread.html http://serials.infomotions.com/code4lib/archive/2011/201111/...
melloclello 15y ago
The Maori Language Commission are going to be all over this like a ton of bricks, 'koha' is such a generic word here (my best guess is that it sort of means 'wilful donation' in English)
wizzyrea 15y ago
Actually, the US trademark was being held by the former owners of LibLime (Metavore, Inc) in trust for the community. It was used as a bargaining chip against the wishes of the community in the acquisition of LibLime by PTFS in 2010. The community really got riled up about this in 2010, and all other community trademarks and IP were transitioned to HLT ownership as stewards of the community IP. They own the current domain (http://koha-community.org http://koha-community.org) and the French trademark (the French company, Biblibre, was holding the French trademark in safekeeping for the community, and paid to have the trademark transferred to HLT's control). There were talks in 2010 of PTFS "allowing" the community to "use" the koha.org domain under their supervision, but it was clear that they wanted editorial control over the site and so it was decided to abandon koha.org. The NZ trademark fracas has been going on for a solid year now, Metavore (LibLime) had filed for the trademark in NZ not more than a few weeks before they sold themselves to PTFS. PTFS could have chosen to withdraw the application, but chose not to. Joann Ransom, director of HLT explains it all on Radio NZ quite clearly: http://ur1.ca/5zz67 http://ur1.ca/5zz67 The line PTFS gives is that the trademarks were purchased from LibLime who bought them fair and square from Katipo - which is fair, they did. But they were allowed to register trademarks with the understanding from the community that the assets would be held in good faith, and they have not been - they have been hijacked. Koha is a gift that HLT gave libraries the world around, and PTFS/LibLime has taken undue advantage of that gift, abusing the community they purport to be a part of.

64 points by Tsagadai 15y ago

The title here misrepresents the article. It doesn't say the New Zealand library is being sued. On the contrary, the article says they are raising money to oppose a trademark application.

Tsagadai 15y ago
It wasn't my intention to be misleading, I just misread. I've updated the link.
- gluejar 15y ago
  Thanks, it helps the cause to stick to the facts.

chappi42 15y ago

from the article: "The situation we find ourselves in, is that after over a year of battling against it, PTFS/Liblime have managed to have their application for a Trademark on Koha in New Zealand accepted. We now have 3 months to object, but to do so involves lawyers and money. We are a small semi rural Library in New Zealand and have no cash spare in our operational budget to afford this, but we do feel it is something we must fight. For the library that invented Koha to now have to have a legal battle to prevent a US company trademarking the word in NZ seems bizarre, but it is at this point that we find ourselves."

spectre 15y ago

I'm surprised the Maori Advisory Board of the Intellectual Property Office hasn't blocked this on the grounds that 'koha' is a Te Reo Maori word (translated as gift or offering). They tend to be highly protective of the language as it's considered to be taonga (treasure).

metel 15y ago
I'd be surprised if it turned out they had any say in the matter. Imagine if the proud and venerable Brî'tíšh people had the power to block the usage of such words as "Windows" to describe a software product.
- aptwebapps 15y ago
  Usage is one thing, trademark is another. And what pertains in the British Isles does necessarily pertain in New Zealand.

1point2 15y ago

More appropriate for Reddit - however being a Kiwi (and someone who once had a trademark problem) I find it amazing the Maori Advisory Board had no problem (I think 'shame on them') and wonder why they did not object. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koha_(custom) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koha_(custom) seems to be a common enough term.

helmut_hed 15y ago

I'd like to hear more about this from the other side. Someone on the original thread has commented to the effect that the library permitted the contractor ("Katipo"?) who wrote the software in the first place to sell the IP to the people who are seeking the trademark... No idea if that's true, of course, and really, why try to trademark it in the place it came from? But still, I'd like to know more.

_kate_ 15y ago
There's a long, convoluted history of issues between the Koha community and Liblime over community 'assets', some of which is summarised here: http://lwn.net/Articles/386284/ http://lwn.net/Articles/386284/ LibLime acquired the Koha portions of Katipo Communications back in 2007, including the koha.org domain name and other assets. The Koha community subsequently had to move to koha-community.org.
- ow1n 15y ago
  "Had to" because Liblime stopped sharing access to the site, something which they had promised to do when taking over maintenance of it (get it in writing next time). Koha.org now exclusively promotes Liblime's non-open fork of Koha.
  - obelos 15y ago
    PTFS/LibLime's "non-open fork" of Koha is available on Github: https://github.com/liblime/LibLime-Koha https://github.com/liblime/LibLime-Koha. We gratefully accept pull requests and bug reports there, as well. We're pushing yet another release there next week. Shortly after the acquisition of LibLime, PTFS offered up the koha.org domain for sale to several community members, including HLT and other vendors, as a means of hopefully rectifying the relationship with them. No one bit, so we've retained it.
    - samich 15y ago
      Citation needed, can you point to evidence of this? Also ... this has nothing do with Liblime trying to trademark Koha in NZ.

nl 15y ago

I found this, from January 2010 (note the "including the US trademark"): LibLime (which is actually a trade name of Columbus, Ohio based Metavore, Inc.) was started in 2005 by Joshua Ferraro, Tina Berger and two others. LibLime has been the hardest-charging and fastest-growing proponent of the Koha Library System in the world. Over the intervening years, LibLime has acquired key Koha-related assets, including the US trademark, copyrights to Koha source code, and the Koha website. The combination of PTFS and LibLime will be supporting 640 installations of Koha under 123 contracts http://go-to-hellman.blogspot.com/2010/01/ptfs-to-acquire-liblime-and-move-to.html http://go-to-hellman.blogspot.com/2010/01/ptfs-to-acquire-li... If that was in 2010, why is it a big issue now?

samich 15y ago
Because this is about the NZ trademark. http://elliottbledsoe.com/2011/11/keep-koha-trademark-open-source/ http://elliottbledsoe.com/2011/11/keep-koha-trademark-open-s...
- nl 15y ago
  Yes, but why does that matter? I understand that the author is from NZ, and the software originated there, but surely the time to object was when the original (presumably US?) trademark was issued? Or at least some outrage could have been expressed at that point?
  - archangel_one 15y ago
    How are the Horowhenua Library Trust meant to know when the US trademark is issued? I can't imagine they're keeping an extremely close eye on all the trademarks being issued over there.
    - nl 15y ago
      The author of the blog post clearly follows the field.
      - 15y ago

tingletech 15y ago

some more info on the backstory is on wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LibLime http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LibLime

tingletech 15y ago
see also more discussion on code4lib listserv http://serials.infomotions.com/code4lib/archive/2011/201111/2720.html http://serials.infomotions.com/code4lib/archive/2011/201111/... and http://serials.infomotions.com/code4lib/archive/2011/201111/thread.html http://serials.infomotions.com/code4lib/archive/2011/201111/...

melloclello 15y ago

The Maori Language Commission are going to be all over this like a ton of bricks, 'koha' is such a generic word here (my best guess is that it sort of means 'wilful donation' in English)

wizzyrea 15y ago

Actually, the US trademark was being held by the former owners of LibLime (Metavore, Inc) in trust for the community. It was used as a bargaining chip against the wishes of the community in the acquisition of LibLime by PTFS in 2010. The community really got riled up about this in 2010, and all other community trademarks and IP were transitioned to HLT ownership as stewards of the community IP. They own the current domain (http://koha-community.org http://koha-community.org) and the French trademark (the French company, Biblibre, was holding the French trademark in safekeeping for the community, and paid to have the trademark transferred to HLT's control). There were talks in 2010 of PTFS "allowing" the community to "use" the koha.org domain under their supervision, but it was clear that they wanted editorial control over the site and so it was decided to abandon koha.org. The NZ trademark fracas has been going on for a solid year now, Metavore (LibLime) had filed for the trademark in NZ not more than a few weeks before they sold themselves to PTFS. PTFS could have chosen to withdraw the application, but chose not to. Joann Ransom, director of HLT explains it all on Radio NZ quite clearly: http://ur1.ca/5zz67 http://ur1.ca/5zz67 The line PTFS gives is that the trademarks were purchased from LibLime who bought them fair and square from Katipo - which is fair, they did. But they were allowed to register trademarks with the understanding from the community that the assets would be held in good faith, and they have not been - they have been hijacked. Koha is a gift that HLT gave libraries the world around, and PTFS/LibLime has taken undue advantage of that gift, abusing the community they purport to be a part of.