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There are valid use cases for both types of transactions: those that require an option for chargeback as well as those that must be settled with finality. The

There are valid use cases for both types of transactions: those that require an option for chargeback as well as those that must be settled with finality. The difference is that while crypto can do both, the legacy finance system cannot.

Asafp 4y ago
Can you share some examples or use cases of transactions that must be settled with finality?
- brewdad 4y ago
  Hiring a hitman?
- sp332 4y ago
  If I sell someone a meal and they eat it, I really don't want that money to leave my account, because I have no recourse on my side.
  - tehlike 4y ago
    İf the meal is bought with stolen funds...
    - cowtools 4y ago
      then the cook should be left uncompensated for their work? There is no "fair" outcome in this situation, so you should at least make the system fail in a reliable way.
      - tehlike 4y ago
        Normally, with credit cards and stuff, the onus is on the vendor that made the sale, technically they should verify the Id of the user match with the name on the card and stuff. Most don't do because convenience wins for the user and increases the value. The user knows if something is wrong (like stolen funds, accounts etc) they will get their money back, and trusts the system so spends more. İf you don't provide this trust system, they won't spend as much as they do. You will get less volume.
  - edgyquant 4y ago
    Okay so what if you give them the wrong meal and they want money back?
    - cowtools 4y ago
      Then the dissatisfied customer throws a fit and warns their peers that the vendor isn't trustworthy. There is an asymmetry here because anyone can be a customer but not everyone can be a vendor- that requires a certain level of reputation and upfront investment. So it is more risky for a vendor to scam a customer than the other way around.
      - josephh 4y ago
        Thank goodness that the merchants that I do deals with do not force me to pay with cryptocurrency.
        cowtools 4y ago
        I don't know, I hear all the time about people buying things on amazon or something and when it arrives it's just crap and you can't get a refund. At the end of the day, getting a refund is not about the payment method, it is about your business relationship with the vendor. Cryptocurrency transactions require high trust in the sense that they cannot be refunded, but they also require low trust in the sense that the vendor cannot possibly steal any more money than what you sign them.
        reillyse 4y ago
        If you are going to argue by anecdote at least use a believable anecdote. Amazon have one of the most customer friendly refund policies and always offer a refund or replacement- obviously because they are just pushing it on to their sellers but still, they do.
        rvz 4y ago
        > Amazon have one of the most customer friendly refund policies and always offer a refund or replacement- obviously because they are just pushing it on to their sellers but still, they do. With an open season of friendly / chargeback fraud, customer lies, refund tricks, etc which customers keep doing every day and so on which too many of that and Amazon will ban your account and they should.
- grlthng 4y ago
  If you are a merchant selling goods and services for money, and had the choice between transactions with finality and without, you will always chose transactions with finality.
  - dllthomas 4y ago
    Not always. If customer fraud is low and customer wariness is high, you might well find that providing customers the safety of the option to reverse the charge gets you enough more money that it nets you more overall. Even more so if "finality" of the technology means that users instead turn to the courts to dispute your charges. There is a narrow sense in which the merchant "always prefers finality" but it isn't the relevant sense.
  - kube-system 4y ago
    If customers demand reversible transactions, you will choose reversible transactions or you will not have customers. There are, for instance, no longer many mainstream online merchants who accept only irreversible transactions. There once was a time when online transactions were primarily paid via money order, but PayPal and credit card processing has made that obsolete.
    - scarface_74 4y ago
      When was this time that online payments were done with money orders? Some of the earliest online merchants that were associated with AOL and Prodigy accepted credit cards. Amazon definitely accepted credit cards from day one.
      - kube-system 4y ago
        In the mid to late 90s many retailers online operated like mail-order catalogs with catalogs delivered via http. Many of them were mail-order businesses first, and so they accepted payments for online purchases the same way they did for their majority of their customers. This was also normal for eBay payments at the time. There were, of course, a few that did accept credit cards, but many people were weary about using those features because very little of the web used HTTPS at the time. Even Amazon accepted money orders (and personal checks!) for this reason.
- cowtools 4y ago
  The Silk Road. But in all seriousness, if you are a vendor then any purchase by a customer that is not associated with a legally accountable entity must be settled with finality, because you have no way of preventing charge-back fraud yourself. In cryptocurrency marketplaces, the customers vet the vendors, not the other way around. This is because the vendors have a higher upfront investment in their business and reputation. The customers are not expected to maintain a reputation (for sake of their privacy) or an investment (outside of an multisig escrow) so any attempt to vet them is prone to sybil attack. The process of vetting customers is usually assumed by some monopolistic intermediary like PayPal. These companies are able to vet customers by implementing a mass surveillance system.
- rlpb 4y ago
  Twice I've sold an old car to somebody who answered my ad. I wanted cash on collection only, because I was selling the car to someone I didn't know, couldn't reliably trace and therefore could not trust. If they'd reversed the payment afterwards, I'd have been down a car. Both parties to this kind of transaction understand why finality is required, and don't have a problem with it. It's a second hand "sold as seen" transaction. The buyer knows where the seller likely lives. The seller doesn't know anything about the buyer. Neither party typically carry that kind of cash around, so there are two trips to the bank (with their own risks) that could be saved if there were some sort of easier digital equivalent.
  - sverhagen 4y ago
    If they'd have turned the corner to see the engine fall out from underneath the car, while you'd have already strolled off the scene with the money, they suddenly wouldn't be so happy with finality. I think finality in transactions is more something about "the nominal case". If I'm a transaction processor with significant volume, I would like to reach some final state without too much intervention, but I can still handle the exceedingly-rare exceptions with (expensive) humans. Where that point lies differs per application, also dependent on what kind of service I'm wanting to deliver.
    - rlpb 4y ago
      > If they'd have turned the corner to see the engine fall out from underneath the car, while you'd have already strolled off the scene with the money, they suddenly wouldn't be so happy with finality. Maybe, but since I also wouldn't be too happy if they reversed the transaction after taking the car, we both agree in advance that the sale will not be reversible. For the payment, that's done by using cash (and the possession of it), and for the car, also just possession. I give the buyer the opportunity to inspect the car before committing to the sale, and then it is "sold as seen". Unless I committed fraud, the engine falling out from underneath the car will be the buyer's problem, including in law. It is always possible to seek redress through the courts whether the financial transaction itself was reversible or not, so that's not relevant here. Neither is the fact that to do that knowledge of identity and evidence is required; those concerns also exist regardless of transaction reversibility.
- insane_dreamer 4y ago
  Buying a house. This is why title companies will only accept wire transfers, not ACH.
  - cortesoft 4y ago
    Buying a house does not have 'finality' in that sense. This is why you buy title insurance - many things can happen where it turns out you don't own the house like you thought.
blatherard 4y ago
I think wire transfers are generally irreversible.
oarsinsync 4y ago
How do you do a chargeback with Bitcoin? Or is that a different cryptocurrency feature?
- cowtools 4y ago
  There is a feature in bitcoin called replace-by-fee (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Replace_by_fee https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Replace_by_fee). But that is not completely analogous to a refund because vendors will wait many blocks before accepting a transaction (to prevent finney attack). If you want to have a third party mediate the exchange, you can use a multi-signature transaction (https://monerodocs.org/multisignature/ https://monerodocs.org/multisignature/). For example you send the cryptocurrency to a 2-of-3 address where the mediator, the vendor, and the customer each hold a key and two of them are needed to move the funds (the mediator sides with either vendor or customer, or the vendor and customer both side against the mediator). Or you can send the cryptocurrency to a 2-of-2 address, which allows the customer to permanently withhold the funds from the vendor at the cost of withholding some funds from themself that they put down ahead of time, like an escrow that is locked in case of dispute.
- DennisP 4y ago
  One way to get something like chargeback is 2-of-3 multisig. The transaction has to be signed by any two of: sender, receiver, and a neutral arbitrator. If sender and receiver agree, the arbitrator never has to hear about the transaction.
  - fl0id 4y ago
    That is nothing like chargeback. It would be like chargeback if you could rescind a signature, once you notice a mistake.
    - DennisP 4y ago
      That wouldn't be chargeback either. You have to get the bank to do the chargeback, you can't just do it yourself. If you wanted something more like that, you could pay via a smart contract that holds the funds in escrow for a while, with the arbitrator key able to refund the money to you.
kube-system 4y ago
Yes, there are valid use cases for irreversible payments, like closing on a home. Banks do have solutions for this: wire transfers. Which is what you’ll use if you buy a house in the US.
- mbreese 4y ago
  I was going to suggest “cash” as the other option.
- snotrockets 4y ago
  Wire transfers are just as reversible. Nothing in banking is un-undoable. Some just require more effort to undo.
  - kube-system 4y ago
    Only in the case of a mistake or fraud. So if the recipient got the right amount in their account: it’s a done deal, same day. As opposed to ACH which could bounce or you could issue a stop payment.
    - snotrockets 4y ago
      The definition of mistake is quite broad. Not all parties may agree to what is and isn’t, requiring litigation, but the transfer itself isn’t a done deal until a very lengthy process has been exhausted.
  - riking 4y ago
    Zelle can't be undone if it's done from your account. They just take the money.
    - snotrockets 4y ago
      Of course it can. Zelle and your bank may not be keen on doing it, but it’s no less reversible than any other transfer. And for fraudulent transfers, Zelle’s trying to pin them on the customer is them hoping you’d give up rather than remind them that regulation E governs it as well, and they used to acknowledge that on their web site.

Asafp 4y ago

Can you share some examples or use cases of transactions that must be settled with finality?

brewdad 4y ago
Hiring a hitman?
sp332 4y ago
If I sell someone a meal and they eat it, I really don't want that money to leave my account, because I have no recourse on my side.
- tehlike 4y ago
  İf the meal is bought with stolen funds...
  - cowtools 4y ago
    then the cook should be left uncompensated for their work? There is no "fair" outcome in this situation, so you should at least make the system fail in a reliable way.
    - tehlike 4y ago
      Normally, with credit cards and stuff, the onus is on the vendor that made the sale, technically they should verify the Id of the user match with the name on the card and stuff. Most don't do because convenience wins for the user and increases the value. The user knows if something is wrong (like stolen funds, accounts etc) they will get their money back, and trusts the system so spends more. İf you don't provide this trust system, they won't spend as much as they do. You will get less volume.
- edgyquant 4y ago
  Okay so what if you give them the wrong meal and they want money back?
  - cowtools 4y ago
    Then the dissatisfied customer throws a fit and warns their peers that the vendor isn't trustworthy. There is an asymmetry here because anyone can be a customer but not everyone can be a vendor- that requires a certain level of reputation and upfront investment. So it is more risky for a vendor to scam a customer than the other way around.
    - josephh 4y ago
      Thank goodness that the merchants that I do deals with do not force me to pay with cryptocurrency.
      - cowtools 4y ago
        I don't know, I hear all the time about people buying things on amazon or something and when it arrives it's just crap and you can't get a refund. At the end of the day, getting a refund is not about the payment method, it is about your business relationship with the vendor. Cryptocurrency transactions require high trust in the sense that they cannot be refunded, but they also require low trust in the sense that the vendor cannot possibly steal any more money than what you sign them.
        reillyse 4y ago
        If you are going to argue by anecdote at least use a believable anecdote. Amazon have one of the most customer friendly refund policies and always offer a refund or replacement- obviously because they are just pushing it on to their sellers but still, they do.
        rvz 4y ago
        > Amazon have one of the most customer friendly refund policies and always offer a refund or replacement- obviously because they are just pushing it on to their sellers but still, they do. With an open season of friendly / chargeback fraud, customer lies, refund tricks, etc which customers keep doing every day and so on which too many of that and Amazon will ban your account and they should.
grlthng 4y ago
If you are a merchant selling goods and services for money, and had the choice between transactions with finality and without, you will always chose transactions with finality.
- dllthomas 4y ago
  Not always. If customer fraud is low and customer wariness is high, you might well find that providing customers the safety of the option to reverse the charge gets you enough more money that it nets you more overall. Even more so if "finality" of the technology means that users instead turn to the courts to dispute your charges. There is a narrow sense in which the merchant "always prefers finality" but it isn't the relevant sense.
- kube-system 4y ago
  If customers demand reversible transactions, you will choose reversible transactions or you will not have customers. There are, for instance, no longer many mainstream online merchants who accept only irreversible transactions. There once was a time when online transactions were primarily paid via money order, but PayPal and credit card processing has made that obsolete.
  - scarface_74 4y ago
    When was this time that online payments were done with money orders? Some of the earliest online merchants that were associated with AOL and Prodigy accepted credit cards. Amazon definitely accepted credit cards from day one.
    - kube-system 4y ago
      In the mid to late 90s many retailers online operated like mail-order catalogs with catalogs delivered via http. Many of them were mail-order businesses first, and so they accepted payments for online purchases the same way they did for their majority of their customers. This was also normal for eBay payments at the time. There were, of course, a few that did accept credit cards, but many people were weary about using those features because very little of the web used HTTPS at the time. Even Amazon accepted money orders (and personal checks!) for this reason.
cowtools 4y ago
The Silk Road. But in all seriousness, if you are a vendor then any purchase by a customer that is not associated with a legally accountable entity must be settled with finality, because you have no way of preventing charge-back fraud yourself. In cryptocurrency marketplaces, the customers vet the vendors, not the other way around. This is because the vendors have a higher upfront investment in their business and reputation. The customers are not expected to maintain a reputation (for sake of their privacy) or an investment (outside of an multisig escrow) so any attempt to vet them is prone to sybil attack. The process of vetting customers is usually assumed by some monopolistic intermediary like PayPal. These companies are able to vet customers by implementing a mass surveillance system.
rlpb 4y ago
Twice I've sold an old car to somebody who answered my ad. I wanted cash on collection only, because I was selling the car to someone I didn't know, couldn't reliably trace and therefore could not trust. If they'd reversed the payment afterwards, I'd have been down a car. Both parties to this kind of transaction understand why finality is required, and don't have a problem with it. It's a second hand "sold as seen" transaction. The buyer knows where the seller likely lives. The seller doesn't know anything about the buyer. Neither party typically carry that kind of cash around, so there are two trips to the bank (with their own risks) that could be saved if there were some sort of easier digital equivalent.
- sverhagen 4y ago
  If they'd have turned the corner to see the engine fall out from underneath the car, while you'd have already strolled off the scene with the money, they suddenly wouldn't be so happy with finality. I think finality in transactions is more something about "the nominal case". If I'm a transaction processor with significant volume, I would like to reach some final state without too much intervention, but I can still handle the exceedingly-rare exceptions with (expensive) humans. Where that point lies differs per application, also dependent on what kind of service I'm wanting to deliver.
  - rlpb 4y ago
    > If they'd have turned the corner to see the engine fall out from underneath the car, while you'd have already strolled off the scene with the money, they suddenly wouldn't be so happy with finality. Maybe, but since I also wouldn't be too happy if they reversed the transaction after taking the car, we both agree in advance that the sale will not be reversible. For the payment, that's done by using cash (and the possession of it), and for the car, also just possession. I give the buyer the opportunity to inspect the car before committing to the sale, and then it is "sold as seen". Unless I committed fraud, the engine falling out from underneath the car will be the buyer's problem, including in law. It is always possible to seek redress through the courts whether the financial transaction itself was reversible or not, so that's not relevant here. Neither is the fact that to do that knowledge of identity and evidence is required; those concerns also exist regardless of transaction reversibility.
insane_dreamer 4y ago
Buying a house. This is why title companies will only accept wire transfers, not ACH.
- cortesoft 4y ago
  Buying a house does not have 'finality' in that sense. This is why you buy title insurance - many things can happen where it turns out you don't own the house like you thought.

blatherard 4y ago

I think wire transfers are generally irreversible.

oarsinsync 4y ago

How do you do a chargeback with Bitcoin? Or is that a different cryptocurrency feature?

cowtools 4y ago
There is a feature in bitcoin called replace-by-fee (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Replace_by_fee https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Replace_by_fee). But that is not completely analogous to a refund because vendors will wait many blocks before accepting a transaction (to prevent finney attack). If you want to have a third party mediate the exchange, you can use a multi-signature transaction (https://monerodocs.org/multisignature/ https://monerodocs.org/multisignature/). For example you send the cryptocurrency to a 2-of-3 address where the mediator, the vendor, and the customer each hold a key and two of them are needed to move the funds (the mediator sides with either vendor or customer, or the vendor and customer both side against the mediator). Or you can send the cryptocurrency to a 2-of-2 address, which allows the customer to permanently withhold the funds from the vendor at the cost of withholding some funds from themself that they put down ahead of time, like an escrow that is locked in case of dispute.
DennisP 4y ago
One way to get something like chargeback is 2-of-3 multisig. The transaction has to be signed by any two of: sender, receiver, and a neutral arbitrator. If sender and receiver agree, the arbitrator never has to hear about the transaction.
- fl0id 4y ago
  That is nothing like chargeback. It would be like chargeback if you could rescind a signature, once you notice a mistake.
  - DennisP 4y ago
    That wouldn't be chargeback either. You have to get the bank to do the chargeback, you can't just do it yourself. If you wanted something more like that, you could pay via a smart contract that holds the funds in escrow for a while, with the arbitrator key able to refund the money to you.

kube-system 4y ago

Yes, there are valid use cases for irreversible payments, like closing on a home. Banks do have solutions for this: wire transfers. Which is what you’ll use if you buy a house in the US.

mbreese 4y ago
I was going to suggest “cash” as the other option.
snotrockets 4y ago
Wire transfers are just as reversible. Nothing in banking is un-undoable. Some just require more effort to undo.
- kube-system 4y ago
  Only in the case of a mistake or fraud. So if the recipient got the right amount in their account: it’s a done deal, same day. As opposed to ACH which could bounce or you could issue a stop payment.
  - snotrockets 4y ago
    The definition of mistake is quite broad. Not all parties may agree to what is and isn’t, requiring litigation, but the transfer itself isn’t a done deal until a very lengthy process has been exhausted.
- riking 4y ago
  Zelle can't be undone if it's done from your account. They just take the money.
  - snotrockets 4y ago
    Of course it can. Zelle and your bank may not be keen on doing it, but it’s no less reversible than any other transfer. And for fraudulent transfers, Zelle’s trying to pin them on the customer is them hoping you’d give up rather than remind them that regulation E governs it as well, and they used to acknowledge that on their web site.