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> This is where e.g. much of "free market" rhetoric and e.g. Libertarianism need to take a severe backseat. No, it's where we the people need to understand tha

by pdonis 4y ago

> This is where e.g. much of "free market" rhetoric and e.g. Libertarianism need to take a severe backseat. No, it's where we the people need to understand that rights come with responsibilities. If you want to claim the right to keep your data private, you need to not give it to third parties that you know are not going to honor that. And knowing that is easy when it comes to Google, Facebook, Twitter, etc., because of the simple rule that if you're not paying for the product, you are the product. The problem here is not too much free market and libertarianism, but too little. The ultimate reason for this... > It's increasingly difficult, if not impossible, to opt out. ...is that the government has inserted itself more and more deeply into our lives, and we have let it. For example, your kids' schools are beholden to Google because they are run by the government, which is insulated from free market competition and can just punt on providing proper infrastructure. And the reason why Google, Facebook, Twitter, etc. can survive on the ad-supported business model, instead of having to make their users actual paying customers as would be the case in a real free market, is that the government has set things up to favor them. They can get cheap loans to build the massive infrastructure they need because of government monetary policy. They can insulate themselves from any effective legal challenge because of the way the legal system is set up.

cormorant 4y ago
> your kids' schools are beholden to Google because they are run by the government, which is insulated from free market competition and can just punt on providing proper infrastructure. Private schools are just as beholden to Google. No school is going to compete on the basis of "we don't use Google services (we pay for more-private infrastructure)", in any world, ever. > we the people need to understand that rights come with responsibilities. If you want to claim the right to keep your data private, you need to not give it to third parties that you know are not going to honor that. So if I'm a parent of a school-age child, what exactly do you think I should do? If I don't decide that Google accounts are enough of a reason to homeschool my child, will you claim I don't understand that rights come with responsibilities, and that I (and my child) don't have any right to expect our data to be private? We live in a society. Sometimes the only way to crack collective action problems is government intervention.
- pdonis 4y ago
  > No school is going to compete on the basis of "we don't use Google services (we pay for more-private infrastructure)" Um, what? Didn't you just get through saying you don't want your kids to have to have Google accounts just to go to school? Do you think you're the only parent who wants that? Isn't the protection of your kids' privacy by the school worth something? If you're unwilling to pay anything more than zero for something you claim you value, then your claim that you value it becomes, to say the least, questionable. > if I'm a parent of a school-age child, what exactly do you think I should do? You mentioned homeschooling yourself. In our current environment, unless you are very lucky in what school district you happen to live in, that is probably the only option to avoid giving up your kids' privacy. > don't have any right to expect our data to be private Google apparently doesn't think so, and neither do your kids' current schools (and I suspect your implication that the vast majority of schools in the country are similar is correct), which means the government that runs those schools doesn't think so either. > Sometimes the only way to crack collective action problems is government intervention. No, that's my point: governments do not solve collective action problems. They grab power using the excuse that they are going to solve such problems Real Soon Now, but they never actually do. Governments run all the public schools in this country: they have had all the tools they need to solve the collective action problem of how to protect kids' privacy in a digital world for quite some time now. And they don't care. And this is just one of many, many examples.
  - cormorant 4y ago
    > If you're unwilling to pay anything more than zero for something you claim you value I'm willing to pay something for it. That doesn't imply I'm willing to pay an unlimited amount for it. Google accounts are not in the top 10 things I care about with regard to schools. > You mentioned homeschooling yourself. In our current environment, unless you are very lucky in what school district you happen to live in, that is probably the only option to avoid giving up your kids' privacy. My mention of homeschooling was intended to drive home the point that the only way to avoid Google in this situation has incredibly high cost, out of proportion to its benefit. If you truly think that a parent should homeschool to avoid giving data to Google, that's an extreme view. That does not mean I don't think giving data to Google is harmful! > No, that's my point: governments do not solve collective action problems. They grab power using the excuse that they are going to solve such problems Real Soon Now, but they never actually do. Apparently your solution to collective action problems is that individuals must take action, without coordination, even when it's individually counterproductive. And you view failure to do so as indicative that they place no value on the problem getting solved. In other words, you seem to dismiss the notion of the "collective action problem" as a phenomenon at all. Frankly, I find this view absurdly naïve.

by pdonis 4y ago

cormorant 4y ago

> your kids' schools are beholden to Google because they are run by the government, which is insulated from free market competition and can just punt on providing proper infrastructure. Private schools are just as beholden to Google. No school is going to compete on the basis of "we don't use Google services (we pay for more-private infrastructure)", in any world, ever. > we the people need to understand that rights come with responsibilities. If you want to claim the right to keep your data private, you need to not give it to third parties that you know are not going to honor that. So if I'm a parent of a school-age child, what exactly do you think I should do? If I don't decide that Google accounts are enough of a reason to homeschool my child, will you claim I don't understand that rights come with responsibilities, and that I (and my child) don't have any right to expect our data to be private? We live in a society. Sometimes the only way to crack collective action problems is government intervention.

pdonis 4y ago
> No school is going to compete on the basis of "we don't use Google services (we pay for more-private infrastructure)" Um, what? Didn't you just get through saying you don't want your kids to have to have Google accounts just to go to school? Do you think you're the only parent who wants that? Isn't the protection of your kids' privacy by the school worth something? If you're unwilling to pay anything more than zero for something you claim you value, then your claim that you value it becomes, to say the least, questionable. > if I'm a parent of a school-age child, what exactly do you think I should do? You mentioned homeschooling yourself. In our current environment, unless you are very lucky in what school district you happen to live in, that is probably the only option to avoid giving up your kids' privacy. > don't have any right to expect our data to be private Google apparently doesn't think so, and neither do your kids' current schools (and I suspect your implication that the vast majority of schools in the country are similar is correct), which means the government that runs those schools doesn't think so either. > Sometimes the only way to crack collective action problems is government intervention. No, that's my point: governments do not solve collective action problems. They grab power using the excuse that they are going to solve such problems Real Soon Now, but they never actually do. Governments run all the public schools in this country: they have had all the tools they need to solve the collective action problem of how to protect kids' privacy in a digital world for quite some time now. And they don't care. And this is just one of many, many examples.
- cormorant 4y ago
  > If you're unwilling to pay anything more than zero for something you claim you value I'm willing to pay something for it. That doesn't imply I'm willing to pay an unlimited amount for it. Google accounts are not in the top 10 things I care about with regard to schools. > You mentioned homeschooling yourself. In our current environment, unless you are very lucky in what school district you happen to live in, that is probably the only option to avoid giving up your kids' privacy. My mention of homeschooling was intended to drive home the point that the only way to avoid Google in this situation has incredibly high cost, out of proportion to its benefit. If you truly think that a parent should homeschool to avoid giving data to Google, that's an extreme view. That does not mean I don't think giving data to Google is harmful! > No, that's my point: governments do not solve collective action problems. They grab power using the excuse that they are going to solve such problems Real Soon Now, but they never actually do. Apparently your solution to collective action problems is that individuals must take action, without coordination, even when it's individually counterproductive. And you view failure to do so as indicative that they place no value on the problem getting solved. In other words, you seem to dismiss the notion of the "collective action problem" as a phenomenon at all. Frankly, I find this view absurdly naïve.