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It's the same question as why people keep so many valuables in houses where you can just break a window, walk in, and take stuff: because you go to jail if you
by RyanCavanaugh 4y ago
It's the same question as why people keep so many valuables in houses where you can just break a window, walk in, and take stuff: because you go to jail if you do that.
If ACH was different and you could just, say, walk up to an ATM and punch in a routing/account number and withdraw cash, it'd be a very different situation. You can only interact with the ACH system through a regular bank, and regular banks have KYC regulations that mean the recipient of those funds has a name, address, and SSN. Doing theft via ACH means the funds end up in account clearly tied to your identity, and you go to jail.
- ramesh31 4y agoThis. Same as fraud. I could put up a website right now, point some ads to it, and start harvesting thousands of CC numbers to sell. But then I would go to jail.
- gernb 4y agoThis doesn't really answer the question though. People steal things all the time. The easier it is to steal the more they do it. Bikes, breaking into cars, purses, etc... We have passwords and two factor to prevent this stuff for lots of situations but in this ACH case we seem to have nothing. What's special about ACH vs all other situations? Why do I need a password and two factor on other accounts but not ACH? It's just as illegal to break into those other accounts is it not?
- tyingq 4y agoYou could hack someone's business bank account and ACH debit other people, yes. But then you have to get the money out of that account, and into cash in your hands without leaving a trail that leads to you. It's possible, but complicated. And if you could do it, there was probably already significant money in the account you hacked into in the first place. No need to pad it with ACH debits that might set off alarm bells.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- bombcar 4y agoYou can't just take money with the numbers. You have to be a bank or otherwise registered with the clearing house. So you can ask your bank to pull money from my account, and if I object my bank will claw back the money from your bank and they will know who you are. And if it wasn't all a misunderstanding or a typo, then they know where to find you.
- sp332 4y agoYou can just take money with the numbers. A business can just ask for ACH account info for payments. That means a customer could use someone else's "numbers" to fraudulently buy thigs. And maybe that other person wouldn't be liable for the fraudulent transaction, but the customer would still have the stuff they bought without leaving an ID behind.
- Sohcahtoa82 4y agoWhat businesses allow you to pay via ACH? Off the top of my head, the only ones I can think of are utilities, other banks (so you can make loan payments), and consumer payment processors like PayPal. In the first two, they'll have your ID. In the latter, they do the "make two deposits" thing to verify you own (or at least have access to) the account. I can't go to Wal-mart and pay via ACH. Do they even take personal checks anymore?
- jsmith45 4y agoOf course they still take personal checks. How else would elderly granny that does not trust "plastic" pay? Some would do it with cash, but many have paid with checks their whole lives, and will not stop until they drop dead. And it certainly used to be common for e-commerce sites to accept "electronic checks" by having you type in the routing and account numbers, with no additional verification. These days, there usually is additional verification. It is still commonly accepted with no verification for payment for things like utility bills. This appears to be on the assumption that if there is check fraud they probably know the guilty party, because who else would be trying to pay your power bill?
- 4y ago
- olliej 4y agoThe question I think is more “why does someone have to give me their account details and so allow me to remove an arbitrary amount rather than me providing my account details knowing that all you can do is give me money?”
- cortesoft 4y agoThe answer is that people DO steal via ACH, just like people rob houses. They are caught and prosecuted. What makes you think no one ever steals via ACH?
- nerdponx 4y agoI actually know someone who was a victim of this, they had written some checks and the recipient had used them to make unauthorized withdrawals. I believe everything was reversed after the police got involved.
- 29athrowaway 4y ago18 U.S. Code § 1343 - Fraud by wire, radio, or television https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1343 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1343 ACH fraud is wire fraud
- rosnd 4y agoWow, you can't do crime because it's illegal! How do you explain the widespread availability of "drop" accounts in the US? Cybercrime forums are full of people offering services to "cash out" illicit bank transfers into cryptocurrency.
- RyanCavanaugh 4y agoIt's not that you can't, it's that the risks of getting caught doing it and punished for it are too high relative to the reward. If you don't believe that deterrence is a real thing, there is a lot more human behavior that needs explanation than just the relative lack of ACH fraud.
- SilasX 4y agoYou still don't seem to understand why "it's illegal" is not a great insight to lead your example with. Even if true, the answer would lead with what makes this illegal thing so less prone to violation than other illegal things.
- permo-w 4y agoit is illegal and easily detectable
- SilasX 4y agoI got that part. Still doesn’t justify a comment that starts with a paragraph implying that illegal things can’t happen because deterrent. That doesn’t help.
- permo-w 4y agono one said they can’t, just this is largely why they don’t. are you going to rob a supermarket where you have to hand in ID at the door? or will you find somewhere easier?
- ryandvm 4y agoBingo. This is something the cryptocurrency extremists just willfully refuse to acknowledge. It turns out that transaction reversibility and the ability (and willingness) of law enforcement to get involved are extremely useful tools in most commerce scenarios.
- throw101010 4y agoIf reversibility is needed any "cryptocurrency extremist" will tell you that there is no trustless solution to this kind of transaction and that a trusted intermediary (usually an escrow) is needed. This is what happens with fiat money anyways, it is just so intimately mixed by now (credit cards, ACH, etc.) that you figure it's the only kind of transaction that exist or should exist. Crypto is providing an alternative to this point of view, if you don't think you need it, don't use it, pretty straightforward... and if you want to stop it because you want people to think like you, try to stop it, let's have fun.
- permo-w 4y agoI think it’s the evangelism of crypto that irritates people, not the personal use of it, although there are the obvious environmental issues with that too.
- throw101010 4y agoI don't think anybody asked what was annoying about crypto, we are talking about irreversibility and why it can be a useful option for some people. But thanks for sharing your concerns I guess.
- permo-w 4y agoyou spent the last paragraph of your comment complaining about people having a problem with crypto as if you have no idea why that might be also perhaps consider taking a less passive aggressive tone. throwaway accounts are not an excuse to be rude
- throwgogog111 4y ago> because you go to jail if you do that. The people involved in money transfer scams are never, ever going to jail, ever.