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It’s refreshing to see a front-page Rust piece that just nails it on promoting the language. It cites concrete examples of where the rubber really meets the ro

It’s refreshing to see a front-page Rust piece that just nails it on promoting the language. It cites concrete examples of where the rubber really meets the road: e.g. Cargo as a one-stop-shop for platform insensitive, “just works” build and dep management. It acknowledges that it’s ok for fun and novelty to be features, which it is! It steers well clear of A >> B nonsense. No preachy TED talk about memory safety. It’s respectful of the value that other languages provide in their respective niches. This is how to sell Rust. It’s novel and fun but also pragmatic and industrial grade! And if you’re into X, that’s cool too!

taftster 4y ago
Your comment helped me want to click through and read the post. I'm very tired of all the recent Rust fanboy posts, but level-headed and earnest comparisons against real implementations make for much better understanding of a new concept or language. Here are some select quotes from the article: > Please note that this is not to say that Rust this [sic] much faster than Haskell, instead see it as a comparison of two implementations. I’m sure someone could make it super fast in Haskell. > I don’t think it means that Rust is simpler or easier than Haskell, it just means that I personally had an easier time to grok Rust than Haskell.
- benreesman 4y ago
  The author is clearly an experienced and mature hacker who knows many languages well. It’s pretty difficult to maintain the shrill “X is better than everything” tone you’re referring to with a diverse portfolio of marketable skills. I don’t know how Rust, which is quite a cool language, attracted this sizable bloc of aggressively intermediate jihadis, but it’s really worrying because Rust is in fact innovative and important, but epic languages have crashed and burned over less.
  - nindalf 4y ago
    You’re really going to call people jihadis for talking about the technical strengths of a programming language? And then you’re going to act like you’re the self appointed arbiter of discourse on HN, saying that this kind of article is ok but that kind isn’t? Maybe a person who calls those they disagree with jihadis isn’t qualified to police what others say. Let’s talk about the way you talk. Here’s you from 5 days ago accusing a good tool of being a “dumpster fire” and saying “it crashes process IDs more often than Justin Bieber crashes Maseratis”. (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32581005 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32581005). But it gets worse, because later you start crying about being downvoted. At this point it looks like a speed run of how many HN rules you can break. And then you follow that up with tone policing others.
    - adamdusty 4y ago
      While his vocabulary might be a inflammatory, it's hard to argue that any language has an evangelistic community anywhere near the level of rust's. No other community is pushes their favorite language for every single use case. No other language has a rewrite it in rust meme. No other language attacks people for unsafe code.
      - nindalf 4y ago
        You want to see criticism of Rust? Here’s the best, most accurate criticism of Rust, written by avid Rustaceans. - Why Not Rust? (https://matklad.github.io/2020/09/20/why-not-rust.html https://matklad.github.io/2020/09/20/why-not-rust.html) - A Rust match made in hell (https://fasterthanli.me/articles/a-rust-match-made-in-hell https://fasterthanli.me/articles/a-rust-match-made-in-hell) Compare these with the superficial criticism that benreesman was making. He couldn’t even link to the proper issue, a fact he realised 10 hours later. Even had he linked to the right issue, he has no idea what he’s talking about. He says he had some issue with the language server and then simultaneously mentions LLVM? rust-analyser doesn’t import LLVM because it doesn’t need to generate machine code. You think when such poor feedback gets pushback it means people aren’t listening. No, it’s just poor feedback. If you want high quality criticism of Rust, read the articles I linked. Rust has many shortcomings and these folks discuss it in detail. > no other language has a rewrite it in rust meme. Your account is a year old. I’ve been here almost 10. I remember when everyone was excited about Go and wanted to rewrite everything in Go. And before Go it was Python. A couple of years from now they’ll be rewriting everything in Carbon. This is normal when things are new and people are still discovering it. Most of the folks you’re encountering are excited by Rust … and that’s ok. It’s not a bad thing to be excited or share that with others. If that reduces your quality of life, I apologise. But they meant no harm. > No other language Firstly, no language does anything. And secondly, you’re making sweeping generalisations of a large community based on a couple of incidents. I don’t know there’s anything I can say, other than I haven’t seen it in years. No one thinks it’s a good idea to attack anyone, and moderators are usually quick to nip any anti-social behaviour in the bud. Lastly, anyone with a lick of Rust experience knows that unsafe is useful and widely used. You can’t implement std::Vec without it, for instance.
- pdimitar 4y ago
  I religiously refresh HN the last few months and I've seen exactly zero "fanboy" Rust articles. All of them outline what was gained by a switch to it and what problems were eliminated. The better ones also list tradeoffs i.e. they say what got a bit harder, too. Maybe you just have an axe to grind?
  - Ilikeruby 4y ago
    > I religiously refresh HN the last few months Dude, touch some grass
    - pdimitar 4y ago
      Yeah, started doing it. :) HN became boring in the last few years anyhow.
rychco 4y ago
(Ignoring the language itself for a moment) I absolutely love cargo. It’s so productive & easy to use. I have never had the pleasure of using such a painless cross platform build system. I’m neutral on Rust itself but Cargo is awesome.
- benreesman 4y ago
  Cargo takes a rather brute-force approach to the hard problems, but it generally just fucking works, which is a comically under-rated feature! On the one hand, it’s depressing that Cargo is forced to “go it’s own way” in order to achieve some sanity because it can’t can’t trust the platforms, but working is working and I can’t remember more than one or two times I’ve seen it shit the bed. It’s pragmatic, useable, discoverable, and industrial strength.
  - Jalad 4y ago
    > On the one hand, it’s depressing that Cargo is forced to “go it’s own way” in order to achieve some sanity because it can’t can’t trust the platforms I've used Rust and Cargo a bit but I don't have a lot of insight into it, what does Cargo actually need to implement itself instead of trusting the platform?
    - kibwen 4y ago
      It may be referring to the Rust ecosystem's propensity to pull code from crates.io (and for the Rust toolchain to update itself via rustup) rather than relying on distro-level package managers. Distros do still package Rust, and some are even relatively up to date, but finding third-party libraries that work with [insert arbitrary old version of Rust] can be a challenge, because libraries often start using new APIs quite soon after they hit stable (and obviously old versions of Rust don't know what to do with that; this is the difference between backward compatibility and forward compatibility).
- pjmlp 4y ago
  CPAN, Maven, NuGET,... It isn't as if it wasn't done before.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

taftster 4y ago

Your comment helped me want to click through and read the post. I'm very tired of all the recent Rust fanboy posts, but level-headed and earnest comparisons against real implementations make for much better understanding of a new concept or language. Here are some select quotes from the article: > Please note that this is not to say that Rust this [sic] much faster than Haskell, instead see it as a comparison of two implementations. I’m sure someone could make it super fast in Haskell. > I don’t think it means that Rust is simpler or easier than Haskell, it just means that I personally had an easier time to grok Rust than Haskell.

benreesman 4y ago
The author is clearly an experienced and mature hacker who knows many languages well. It’s pretty difficult to maintain the shrill “X is better than everything” tone you’re referring to with a diverse portfolio of marketable skills. I don’t know how Rust, which is quite a cool language, attracted this sizable bloc of aggressively intermediate jihadis, but it’s really worrying because Rust is in fact innovative and important, but epic languages have crashed and burned over less.
- nindalf 4y ago
  You’re really going to call people jihadis for talking about the technical strengths of a programming language? And then you’re going to act like you’re the self appointed arbiter of discourse on HN, saying that this kind of article is ok but that kind isn’t? Maybe a person who calls those they disagree with jihadis isn’t qualified to police what others say. Let’s talk about the way you talk. Here’s you from 5 days ago accusing a good tool of being a “dumpster fire” and saying “it crashes process IDs more often than Justin Bieber crashes Maseratis”. (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32581005 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32581005). But it gets worse, because later you start crying about being downvoted. At this point it looks like a speed run of how many HN rules you can break. And then you follow that up with tone policing others.
  - adamdusty 4y ago
    While his vocabulary might be a inflammatory, it's hard to argue that any language has an evangelistic community anywhere near the level of rust's. No other community is pushes their favorite language for every single use case. No other language has a rewrite it in rust meme. No other language attacks people for unsafe code.
    - nindalf 4y ago
      You want to see criticism of Rust? Here’s the best, most accurate criticism of Rust, written by avid Rustaceans. - Why Not Rust? (https://matklad.github.io/2020/09/20/why-not-rust.html https://matklad.github.io/2020/09/20/why-not-rust.html) - A Rust match made in hell (https://fasterthanli.me/articles/a-rust-match-made-in-hell https://fasterthanli.me/articles/a-rust-match-made-in-hell) Compare these with the superficial criticism that benreesman was making. He couldn’t even link to the proper issue, a fact he realised 10 hours later. Even had he linked to the right issue, he has no idea what he’s talking about. He says he had some issue with the language server and then simultaneously mentions LLVM? rust-analyser doesn’t import LLVM because it doesn’t need to generate machine code. You think when such poor feedback gets pushback it means people aren’t listening. No, it’s just poor feedback. If you want high quality criticism of Rust, read the articles I linked. Rust has many shortcomings and these folks discuss it in detail. > no other language has a rewrite it in rust meme. Your account is a year old. I’ve been here almost 10. I remember when everyone was excited about Go and wanted to rewrite everything in Go. And before Go it was Python. A couple of years from now they’ll be rewriting everything in Carbon. This is normal when things are new and people are still discovering it. Most of the folks you’re encountering are excited by Rust … and that’s ok. It’s not a bad thing to be excited or share that with others. If that reduces your quality of life, I apologise. But they meant no harm. > No other language Firstly, no language does anything. And secondly, you’re making sweeping generalisations of a large community based on a couple of incidents. I don’t know there’s anything I can say, other than I haven’t seen it in years. No one thinks it’s a good idea to attack anyone, and moderators are usually quick to nip any anti-social behaviour in the bud. Lastly, anyone with a lick of Rust experience knows that unsafe is useful and widely used. You can’t implement std::Vec without it, for instance.
pdimitar 4y ago
I religiously refresh HN the last few months and I've seen exactly zero "fanboy" Rust articles. All of them outline what was gained by a switch to it and what problems were eliminated. The better ones also list tradeoffs i.e. they say what got a bit harder, too. Maybe you just have an axe to grind?
- Ilikeruby 4y ago
  > I religiously refresh HN the last few months Dude, touch some grass
  - pdimitar 4y ago
    Yeah, started doing it. :) HN became boring in the last few years anyhow.

rychco 4y ago

(Ignoring the language itself for a moment) I absolutely love cargo. It’s so productive & easy to use. I have never had the pleasure of using such a painless cross platform build system. I’m neutral on Rust itself but Cargo is awesome.

benreesman 4y ago
Cargo takes a rather brute-force approach to the hard problems, but it generally just fucking works, which is a comically under-rated feature! On the one hand, it’s depressing that Cargo is forced to “go it’s own way” in order to achieve some sanity because it can’t can’t trust the platforms, but working is working and I can’t remember more than one or two times I’ve seen it shit the bed. It’s pragmatic, useable, discoverable, and industrial strength.
- Jalad 4y ago
  > On the one hand, it’s depressing that Cargo is forced to “go it’s own way” in order to achieve some sanity because it can’t can’t trust the platforms I've used Rust and Cargo a bit but I don't have a lot of insight into it, what does Cargo actually need to implement itself instead of trusting the platform?
  - kibwen 4y ago
    It may be referring to the Rust ecosystem's propensity to pull code from crates.io (and for the Rust toolchain to update itself via rustup) rather than relying on distro-level package managers. Distros do still package Rust, and some are even relatively up to date, but finding third-party libraries that work with [insert arbitrary old version of Rust] can be a challenge, because libraries often start using new APIs quite soon after they hit stable (and obviously old versions of Rust don't know what to do with that; this is the difference between backward compatibility and forward compatibility).
pjmlp 4y ago
CPAN, Maven, NuGET,... It isn't as if it wasn't done before.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]