5 ms·

I was head of east coast undergraduate recruiting at a consulting firm in LA. I'd say that the article is mostly accurate, on the whole. I used to look through

I was head of east coast undergraduate recruiting at a consulting firm in LA. I'd say that the article is mostly accurate, on the whole. I used to look through thousands of resumes at east coast Ivies. I'd basically throw away anything that had under a 3.3 GPA or a 1350 SAT, unless there was something completely out-of-this-league in the extracurriculars. The issue is the same one that YC faces. There are too many applicants for these positions, and not enough time to adequately evaluate them. So if there's some sort of red flag on the application, the expected probability of making a hire after the interview is lower and it just doesn't make sense to interview when there are better resumes available. It's like playing texas holdem. In heads up, a king-two has over a 50% chance of winning. But when there are 10 other hands, you don't want to take the risk of someone having an Ace. Similarly, there are lots of winning candidates out there, but there isn't enough time to interview them all. If I could go back and re-engineer the process, I'd use far more statistics. I'm certain there would be something programmatic that would figure out a way to do it right. I'd be willing to bet that in the next 15 years someone is going to go Billy Beane on Bain McK and BCG, pick up the talent that seems to be falling in between the cracks, apply technology to the consulting process, and make a killing.

michaelochurch 15y ago
I'd be willing to bet that in the next 15 years someone is going to go Billy Beane on Bain McK and BCG, pick up the talent that seems to be falling in between the cracks, apply technology to the consulting process, and make a killing. Actually, I think those firms are pretty good at selecting the type of person they want. Sure, the 90th-percentile Penn State grad is much smarter than the 30th-percentile Harvard graduate. For technology, you'd rather have the PSU grad who can code. On the other hand, for McKinsey, the latter is arguably a "better" hire. Why? Because investment banking and management consulting are about image and the ability to sell oneself; being 15 IQ points smarter doesn't do much. Not all Ivy League students are very bright (some are, some aren't) but what can be said of almost every one of them (with their admission to the most selective universities as strong evidence) is that they're good at selling themselves.
- rayiner 15y ago
  Given that Ivy admissions these days is based almost entirely on high-school GPA and standardized test scores, I wouldn't wager that the PSU grad is 15 IQ points smarter than the Harvard grad.
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
  - bane 15y ago
    GPA and IQ are not all that strongly correlated (about .50) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient#School_performance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient#School_pe... Self-discipline, working memory, socio-economic status are all better predictors of GPA. http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~duckwort/images/PsychologicalScienceDec2005.pdf http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~duckwort/images/PsychologicalScien... Standardized tests, depending on the test, often test for conformance to expected grading criteria and aren't really any better at correlating with IQ. In fact, it's often shown that in many cases, high IQ is negatively correlated with GPA (the smartest kids by IQ often get lower grades because they spend an awful lot of time being bored out of their skulls in school). http://www.gifted.uconn.edu/siegle/Publications/VTBookUnderachievementCh16.pdf http://www.gifted.uconn.edu/siegle/Publications/VTBookUndera... I'd be perfectly willing to take the bet that a randomly selected 90th percentile PSU grad is smarter on an IQ test than a randomly selected 30th percentile Harvard grad (by at least 15 points).
    - deleted 15y ago
      [deleted]
    - rayiner 15y ago
      The difference between PSU and Harvard students is SAT scores, not really GPA. Penn state's 25-75 range is 1750-1990 (77-93 %-ile), while Harvard's is 2070-2350 (96-99+ %-ile). The SAT is about as well correlated with IQ tests as IQ tests are with each other. Statistically speaking, the 25 %-ile of Harvard's class in terms of IQ is probably right around the 80th %-ile at PSU+. Do you think a 90th %-ile PSU student has a full standard deviation higher IQ than a 80th %-ile PSU student? Note I'm not using the word "smart" because as Malcom Gladwell points out there are diminishing returns beyond top 10% IQ's. However, you're the one who made the claim based on IQ. + It's probably more pronounced than that because of the way admissions is handled individual schools do not have bell-curve distributions of SAT scores. There are sharp drop-offs below the 25th and above the 75th because schools don't have to report this numbers to USNWR.
gvb 15y ago
Zoho has been doing this very successfully in India: scooping up bright high school students that cannot get into a college (typically for financial reasons) and training them internally. https://blogs.zoho.com/general/how-we-recruit-on-formal-credentials-vs-experience-based-education https://blogs.zoho.com/general/how-we-recruit-on-formal-cred...
gxs 15y ago
I have a question for you: How does someone in your position view a low GPA, say 2.5, considering the applicant had to work full time during school? I mean actually pay the bills waiting tables work, not 5 hours a week at a dentists office. (Also, a difficult major, say math at a top though not ivey program) In this position, what hope if any does an applicant have? Edit: clarity/typos
- loganfrederick 15y ago
  I believe this gets to the heart of what's wrong with our current education/economic system: A person in that position likely has no chance. If one were to apply, they would say you should be able to work full time and be a successful, high-scoring full time student. The other option might be networking, but with that kind of schedule, it's hard to network when your competition has more time.

michaelochurch 15y ago

I'd be willing to bet that in the next 15 years someone is going to go Billy Beane on Bain McK and BCG, pick up the talent that seems to be falling in between the cracks, apply technology to the consulting process, and make a killing. Actually, I think those firms are pretty good at selecting the type of person they want. Sure, the 90th-percentile Penn State grad is much smarter than the 30th-percentile Harvard graduate. For technology, you'd rather have the PSU grad who can code. On the other hand, for McKinsey, the latter is arguably a "better" hire. Why? Because investment banking and management consulting are about image and the ability to sell oneself; being 15 IQ points smarter doesn't do much. Not all Ivy League students are very bright (some are, some aren't) but what can be said of almost every one of them (with their admission to the most selective universities as strong evidence) is that they're good at selling themselves.

rayiner 15y ago
Given that Ivy admissions these days is based almost entirely on high-school GPA and standardized test scores, I wouldn't wager that the PSU grad is 15 IQ points smarter than the Harvard grad.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- bane 15y ago
  GPA and IQ are not all that strongly correlated (about .50) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient#School_performance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient#School_pe... Self-discipline, working memory, socio-economic status are all better predictors of GPA. http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~duckwort/images/PsychologicalScienceDec2005.pdf http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~duckwort/images/PsychologicalScien... Standardized tests, depending on the test, often test for conformance to expected grading criteria and aren't really any better at correlating with IQ. In fact, it's often shown that in many cases, high IQ is negatively correlated with GPA (the smartest kids by IQ often get lower grades because they spend an awful lot of time being bored out of their skulls in school). http://www.gifted.uconn.edu/siegle/Publications/VTBookUnderachievementCh16.pdf http://www.gifted.uconn.edu/siegle/Publications/VTBookUndera... I'd be perfectly willing to take the bet that a randomly selected 90th percentile PSU grad is smarter on an IQ test than a randomly selected 30th percentile Harvard grad (by at least 15 points).
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
  - rayiner 15y ago
    The difference between PSU and Harvard students is SAT scores, not really GPA. Penn state's 25-75 range is 1750-1990 (77-93 %-ile), while Harvard's is 2070-2350 (96-99+ %-ile). The SAT is about as well correlated with IQ tests as IQ tests are with each other. Statistically speaking, the 25 %-ile of Harvard's class in terms of IQ is probably right around the 80th %-ile at PSU+. Do you think a 90th %-ile PSU student has a full standard deviation higher IQ than a 80th %-ile PSU student? Note I'm not using the word "smart" because as Malcom Gladwell points out there are diminishing returns beyond top 10% IQ's. However, you're the one who made the claim based on IQ. + It's probably more pronounced than that because of the way admissions is handled individual schools do not have bell-curve distributions of SAT scores. There are sharp drop-offs below the 25th and above the 75th because schools don't have to report this numbers to USNWR.

gvb 15y ago

Zoho has been doing this very successfully in India: scooping up bright high school students that cannot get into a college (typically for financial reasons) and training them internally. https://blogs.zoho.com/general/how-we-recruit-on-formal-credentials-vs-experience-based-education https://blogs.zoho.com/general/how-we-recruit-on-formal-cred...

gxs 15y ago

I have a question for you: How does someone in your position view a low GPA, say 2.5, considering the applicant had to work full time during school? I mean actually pay the bills waiting tables work, not 5 hours a week at a dentists office. (Also, a difficult major, say math at a top though not ivey program) In this position, what hope if any does an applicant have? Edit: clarity/typos

loganfrederick 15y ago
I believe this gets to the heart of what's wrong with our current education/economic system: A person in that position likely has no chance. If one were to apply, they would say you should be able to work full time and be a successful, high-scoring full time student. The other option might be networking, but with that kind of schedule, it's hard to network when your competition has more time.