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Comparing the plight of the arabs to the holocaust is a terrible injustice to the real holocaust victims. One group was systematically hunted down, murdered fo

by hpcjoe 4y ago

Comparing the plight of the arabs to the holocaust is a terrible injustice to the real holocaust victims. One group was systematically hunted down, murdered for who they were, assets stolen and distributed with legal fights going on to this day to recover them, children and women slaughtered for the joy of their tormentors .... to people who were ordered to flee their homes by their leaders, and then denied re-entry by the new political entity. One of these things is completely, absolutely different than the other.

ethotool 4y ago
Not really. Sounds exactly like what the Israelis have been doing to the Palestinians since they confiscated their lands.
- hpcjoe 4y ago
  So ... let me get this straight. You are happily comparing industrial scale extermination, tossing babies into the air and catching them on bayonets, digging gold from murdered peoples mouths ... to ... the voluntary evacuation of a land at war? You are really doing this? Seriously?
jacooper 4y ago
Are you kidding me? > to people who were ordered to flee their homes by their leaders, and then denied re-entry by the new political entity.. Whats happening in Palestine is people "ordered to leave their homes" and then because of "political entity" can't return??? If you want to say the removal of rights to return to your own land, you house getting destroyed and losing all your belongings, children, Innocent people and Journalists getting killed everyday, illegal arrests and the Third holliest mosque in Islam getting regularly attacked, are all because of a "polticial entity", Than one can argue the Holocaust was also because of a "Political entity" that was voted in by people. Now that we apply this weird logic to the Holocaust it suddenly doesn't work huh?
- hpcjoe 4y ago
  Wow ... just so much to unpack here. So much. Arabs left at the behest of their leadership, to return when the arab armies were victorious in the 1948 war. The arabs lost. And they lost all the subsequent wars. In 1967 they massed armies on the borders, readying attacks. They were beaten. Again. Very badly. 1973. Same thing. Etc. Innocent people getting killed every day ... you mean the random attacks in cities? Where terrorists run around with knives, and guns, and mow people over with cars and truck, and blow up busses? What has been the response to that? A wall. Or the absolutely uncontestable image of a war crime as a terrorist government launches missiles indiscriminately at millions of civilians including millions of children, while the rational government of Israel works to destroy those missles? And then the subsequent outcry when Israel defends herself by destroying the launch capability which, the terrorist government has committed another war crime by placing these in civilian areas ... The temple mount is the holiest site in judaism. And no jew is attacking, storming, pouncing, on the temple mount. The people who left Israel upon its founding, need only accept its existence and make peace.
  - sndman 4y ago
    Let's not confuse Zionist ideology with Judaism. One is a peaceful religion whose followers understand commandment #8 (no stealing (e.g. land, property, etc.)). And the other is a Fascist (even Einstein called the Irgun massacre 240 people (of Deir Yassin) a Fascist act of Menachem Begin (see his NYT letter December 4, 1948)), apartheid, militarized, racist government. I think your main narrative is false and, after reading (at least) three major human rights reports (Amnesty, Human Rights Watch, and B'Tselem) in the last 2 years, many now regard Israel as practicing apartheid in the occupied territories of the West Bank and Gaza. This wasn't (and isn't) a war of equals: I think if you read history carefully (Ilan Pappe, Benny Thomas, etc) this is an colonial settler occupying force inflicting apartheid on indigenous non-Jews. All Native people have a right to resist occupation and apartheid. See the Battle of Algiers recently? This is how occupied people resist their colonial overlords. At some point, one must stop calling any criticism of Israel human rights abuses antisemitism. There is indeed antisemitism but advocating for human rights of non-Jews in a "democratic" state is not antisemitic. In 1948, over 750,000 non-Jews were ethnically cleansed from their homes and villages. My parents left Haifa in May 1948 as the city was ethnically cleansed. They didn't leave voluntarily. The Haganah were rolling barrels full of explosives into Arab neighborhoods to terrorize the local residents. It was also a psychological terror campaign: what the Haganah called a "Jewish Whispering campaign". In other words, they advertised the Deir Yassin massacre over loudspeakers (in Arabic) to warn the non-Jews about what was going to happen to them if they stayed. See the Israeli assessment of "migration" from June 30, 1948 at https://www.haaretz.co.il/st/inter/Heng/1948.pdf https://www.haaretz.co.il/st/inter/Heng/1948.pdf. Over 500 villages were burned and/or bulldozed to prevent the return of those expelled. Over 300,000 non-Jews were expelled before Israel was declared a state (May 14, 1948). It was only after this initial wave of migration that the neighboring armies began conflict to prevent the further expulsion of Native non-Jews. After Israel's creation, another 400,000 Indigenous non-Jews were expelled from their towns and villages (From Migration of Eretz Yisrael Arabs between December 1, 1947 and June 1, 1948 url is above) "In reviewing the factors that affected migration, we list the factors that had a definitive effect on population migration. Other factors, localized and smaller scale, are listed in the special reviews of migration movement in each district. The factors, in order of importance, are: 1. Direct Jewish hostile actions against Arab communities. 2. Impact of our hostile actions against communities neighboring where migrants lived (here – particularly – the fall of large neighboring communities). 3. Actions taken by the Dissidents [Irgun, Lehi]. 4. Orders and directives issued by Arab institutions and gangs. 5. Jewish Whispering operations [psychological warfare] intended to drive Arabs to flee. 6. Evacuation ultimatums. 7. Fear of Jewish retaliation upon a major Arab attack on Jews. 8. The appearance of gangs and foreign fighters near the village. 9. Fear of an Arab invasion and its consequences (mostly near the borders). 10. Arab villages isolated within purely Jewish areas. 11. Various local factors and general fear of what was to come." So the non-Jews did not appear to leave voluntarily. When people flee for their lives (and are not allowed to return to their homes (because they have been destroyed), we call this ethnic cleansing. It's a crime against humanity. It isn't that complicated: Zionists want the land but there are people already living on it. What do you do with the non-Jews already there? Israel massacred some of them and drove the rest out to neighboring countries (Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and into the West Bank and Gaza). The exiled are still there. Just visit a Palestinian refugee camp and you can meet them. And why are they angry? They want to return to their destroyed villages. They want their homes back. They want their possessions returned.

by hpcjoe 4y ago

ethotool 4y ago

Not really. Sounds exactly like what the Israelis have been doing to the Palestinians since they confiscated their lands.

hpcjoe 4y ago
So ... let me get this straight. You are happily comparing industrial scale extermination, tossing babies into the air and catching them on bayonets, digging gold from murdered peoples mouths ... to ... the voluntary evacuation of a land at war? You are really doing this? Seriously?

jacooper 4y ago

Are you kidding me? > to people who were ordered to flee their homes by their leaders, and then denied re-entry by the new political entity.. Whats happening in Palestine is people "ordered to leave their homes" and then because of "political entity" can't return??? If you want to say the removal of rights to return to your own land, you house getting destroyed and losing all your belongings, children, Innocent people and Journalists getting killed everyday, illegal arrests and the Third holliest mosque in Islam getting regularly attacked, are all because of a "polticial entity", Than one can argue the Holocaust was also because of a "Political entity" that was voted in by people. Now that we apply this weird logic to the Holocaust it suddenly doesn't work huh?

hpcjoe 4y ago
Wow ... just so much to unpack here. So much. Arabs left at the behest of their leadership, to return when the arab armies were victorious in the 1948 war. The arabs lost. And they lost all the subsequent wars. In 1967 they massed armies on the borders, readying attacks. They were beaten. Again. Very badly. 1973. Same thing. Etc. Innocent people getting killed every day ... you mean the random attacks in cities? Where terrorists run around with knives, and guns, and mow people over with cars and truck, and blow up busses? What has been the response to that? A wall. Or the absolutely uncontestable image of a war crime as a terrorist government launches missiles indiscriminately at millions of civilians including millions of children, while the rational government of Israel works to destroy those missles? And then the subsequent outcry when Israel defends herself by destroying the launch capability which, the terrorist government has committed another war crime by placing these in civilian areas ... The temple mount is the holiest site in judaism. And no jew is attacking, storming, pouncing, on the temple mount. The people who left Israel upon its founding, need only accept its existence and make peace.
- sndman 4y ago
  Let's not confuse Zionist ideology with Judaism. One is a peaceful religion whose followers understand commandment #8 (no stealing (e.g. land, property, etc.)). And the other is a Fascist (even Einstein called the Irgun massacre 240 people (of Deir Yassin) a Fascist act of Menachem Begin (see his NYT letter December 4, 1948)), apartheid, militarized, racist government. I think your main narrative is false and, after reading (at least) three major human rights reports (Amnesty, Human Rights Watch, and B'Tselem) in the last 2 years, many now regard Israel as practicing apartheid in the occupied territories of the West Bank and Gaza. This wasn't (and isn't) a war of equals: I think if you read history carefully (Ilan Pappe, Benny Thomas, etc) this is an colonial settler occupying force inflicting apartheid on indigenous non-Jews. All Native people have a right to resist occupation and apartheid. See the Battle of Algiers recently? This is how occupied people resist their colonial overlords. At some point, one must stop calling any criticism of Israel human rights abuses antisemitism. There is indeed antisemitism but advocating for human rights of non-Jews in a "democratic" state is not antisemitic. In 1948, over 750,000 non-Jews were ethnically cleansed from their homes and villages. My parents left Haifa in May 1948 as the city was ethnically cleansed. They didn't leave voluntarily. The Haganah were rolling barrels full of explosives into Arab neighborhoods to terrorize the local residents. It was also a psychological terror campaign: what the Haganah called a "Jewish Whispering campaign". In other words, they advertised the Deir Yassin massacre over loudspeakers (in Arabic) to warn the non-Jews about what was going to happen to them if they stayed. See the Israeli assessment of "migration" from June 30, 1948 at https://www.haaretz.co.il/st/inter/Heng/1948.pdf https://www.haaretz.co.il/st/inter/Heng/1948.pdf. Over 500 villages were burned and/or bulldozed to prevent the return of those expelled. Over 300,000 non-Jews were expelled before Israel was declared a state (May 14, 1948). It was only after this initial wave of migration that the neighboring armies began conflict to prevent the further expulsion of Native non-Jews. After Israel's creation, another 400,000 Indigenous non-Jews were expelled from their towns and villages (From Migration of Eretz Yisrael Arabs between December 1, 1947 and June 1, 1948 url is above) "In reviewing the factors that affected migration, we list the factors that had a definitive effect on population migration. Other factors, localized and smaller scale, are listed in the special reviews of migration movement in each district. The factors, in order of importance, are: 1. Direct Jewish hostile actions against Arab communities. 2. Impact of our hostile actions against communities neighboring where migrants lived (here – particularly – the fall of large neighboring communities). 3. Actions taken by the Dissidents [Irgun, Lehi]. 4. Orders and directives issued by Arab institutions and gangs. 5. Jewish Whispering operations [psychological warfare] intended to drive Arabs to flee. 6. Evacuation ultimatums. 7. Fear of Jewish retaliation upon a major Arab attack on Jews. 8. The appearance of gangs and foreign fighters near the village. 9. Fear of an Arab invasion and its consequences (mostly near the borders). 10. Arab villages isolated within purely Jewish areas. 11. Various local factors and general fear of what was to come." So the non-Jews did not appear to leave voluntarily. When people flee for their lives (and are not allowed to return to their homes (because they have been destroyed), we call this ethnic cleansing. It's a crime against humanity. It isn't that complicated: Zionists want the land but there are people already living on it. What do you do with the non-Jews already there? Israel massacred some of them and drove the rest out to neighboring countries (Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and into the West Bank and Gaza). The exiled are still there. Just visit a Palestinian refugee camp and you can meet them. And why are they angry? They want to return to their destroyed villages. They want their homes back. They want their possessions returned.