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Well Europe has just finished killing six million Jews. The entire region wants to kill them all. By all means let’s blame the victims for defending themselves

Well Europe has just finished killing six million Jews. The entire region wants to kill them all. By all means let’s blame the victims for defending themselves.

tarakat 4y ago
"Europe"? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't more than half of Europe fight, kill, and die to stop the dictator that was killing Jews? But you'd rather the whole continent feels guilty, instead of proud of their sacrifices?
- hpcjoe 4y ago
  I look at what transpired during the Evian conference[1]. Yeah, I really don't have much sympathy for europeans not wanting to feel guilty. Sins of the father, sure. But they continue the hostile-to-jews policies and actions to this date. So yeah, if they feel guilty and ashamed of what their fore bearers did ... mebbe ... just mebbe ... they should rethink their behavior of joining with avowed jew haters to persecute the only jewish state. Maybe. It is also important to point out that the Europeans opposed the dictator. They did little/nothing to stop the atrocities. That they knew were happening. They could have bombed railways. They didn't (US didn't either). They could have bombed the camps. They didn't. They focused on defeating an expansionist dictator who was taking over their lands. Anything else was secondary at best. Given how the jews were treated immediately after the war, in the refugee camps and who would take them in ... yeah, again, the europeans (and my own US) get no sympathy from me for feeling "guilty". They were guilty. [1] https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/the-evian-conference https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/the-evian-...
  - ethotool 4y ago
    So explain to us then how Zelensky is allied with Azov in Ukraine? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Regiment https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Regiment
  - hpcjoe 4y ago
    With respect to the non-sequitur of the Azov bit, it is completely unrelated to this discussion. That is ... unless you have a problem with ... I dunno ... jews?
  - ethotool 4y ago
    Or you won’t answer the question because you know the answer..? Your logic is flawed and makes no sense. Typical though, these regurgitated talking points are not unusual ;)
    - hpcjoe 4y ago
      Typical lefty argument. Introduce a non-sequitur straw-man and make arguments attempting to divert discussion there when you know you've lost the argument. This discussion, again, is not about Ukraine. It's about the propaganda piece mis-published here on HN, and the commentary that followed. Some are reasonable points, others are repeating narratives that are not supported by facts, but make for nice soundbites, to replace reasonable arguments. A simple proposal for fixing the real issue. 1) arabs who lived in Israel accept that their side lost, multiple times, and make peace with Israel. 2) Israel welcomes new peaceful citizens back in. #1 won't happen before #2, and given how long and hard arabs have fought the very existence of Israel, I doubt many Israelis are open to considering any re-integration. That is literally all it would take to get peace. Which means, it will never happen. Until then, we all recognize the narratives for what they are.
      - ethotool 4y ago
        I didn’t expect you to actually answer it because I know it’s complicated. I’m just pointing out your hypocrisy. Not everyone hates Jews. How can anyone express their frustrations with what’s happening to the Palestinians without you accusing them of disliking Jews? Do you expect us to just accept what’s happening and remain silent?
  - tarakat 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - hpcjoe 4y ago
      [flagged]
      - tarakat 4y ago
        [flagged]
        dang 4y ago
        Please don't perpetuate hellish flamewars on HN. It's exactly what this site is not for—regardless of how wrong some people are or you feel they are. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
      - dang 4y ago
        Please don't perpetuate hellish flamewars on HN. It's exactly what this site is not for—regardless of how wrong some people are or you feel they are. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
zen_1 4y ago
Defending themselves from a genocide in Europe by ethnically cleansing Palestinians? You have a curious way of defining defense.
- hpcjoe 4y ago
  Comparing the plight of the arabs to the holocaust is a terrible injustice to the real holocaust victims. One group was systematically hunted down, murdered for who they were, assets stolen and distributed with legal fights going on to this day to recover them, children and women slaughtered for the joy of their tormentors .... to people who were ordered to flee their homes by their leaders, and then denied re-entry by the new political entity. One of these things is completely, absolutely different than the other.
  - ethotool 4y ago
    Not really. Sounds exactly like what the Israelis have been doing to the Palestinians since they confiscated their lands.
    - hpcjoe 4y ago
      So ... let me get this straight. You are happily comparing industrial scale extermination, tossing babies into the air and catching them on bayonets, digging gold from murdered peoples mouths ... to ... the voluntary evacuation of a land at war? You are really doing this? Seriously?
  - jacooper 4y ago
    Are you kidding me? > to people who were ordered to flee their homes by their leaders, and then denied re-entry by the new political entity.. Whats happening in Palestine is people "ordered to leave their homes" and then because of "political entity" can't return??? If you want to say the removal of rights to return to your own land, you house getting destroyed and losing all your belongings, children, Innocent people and Journalists getting killed everyday, illegal arrests and the Third holliest mosque in Islam getting regularly attacked, are all because of a "polticial entity", Than one can argue the Holocaust was also because of a "Political entity" that was voted in by people. Now that we apply this weird logic to the Holocaust it suddenly doesn't work huh?
jacooper 4y ago
And what do Palestinians have to do with that? Jews came as refugees to Palestine in 1940s, and they were welcomed, just like how Christians and Muslims live in peace in Palestine. Its an extremely important land for all ibrahimic religions. But you don't come as a refuge, then turn as an occupation because "oh they did it to me so I need to do it to you so I can be safe!!!"
dang 4y ago
Please don't use HN for political/ideological/national/racial/religious battle. It leads to hellish flamewars. We don't want those here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
banannaise 4y ago

Well Europe has just finished killing six million Jews. The entire region wants to kill them all. By all means let’s blame the victims for defending themselves.

tarakat 4y ago

"Europe"? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't more than half of Europe fight, kill, and die to stop the dictator that was killing Jews? But you'd rather the whole continent feels guilty, instead of proud of their sacrifices?

hpcjoe 4y ago
I look at what transpired during the Evian conference[1]. Yeah, I really don't have much sympathy for europeans not wanting to feel guilty. Sins of the father, sure. But they continue the hostile-to-jews policies and actions to this date. So yeah, if they feel guilty and ashamed of what their fore bearers did ... mebbe ... just mebbe ... they should rethink their behavior of joining with avowed jew haters to persecute the only jewish state. Maybe. It is also important to point out that the Europeans opposed the dictator. They did little/nothing to stop the atrocities. That they knew were happening. They could have bombed railways. They didn't (US didn't either). They could have bombed the camps. They didn't. They focused on defeating an expansionist dictator who was taking over their lands. Anything else was secondary at best. Given how the jews were treated immediately after the war, in the refugee camps and who would take them in ... yeah, again, the europeans (and my own US) get no sympathy from me for feeling "guilty". They were guilty. [1] https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/the-evian-conference https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/the-evian-...
- ethotool 4y ago
  So explain to us then how Zelensky is allied with Azov in Ukraine? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Regiment https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Regiment
- hpcjoe 4y ago
  With respect to the non-sequitur of the Azov bit, it is completely unrelated to this discussion. That is ... unless you have a problem with ... I dunno ... jews?
- ethotool 4y ago
  Or you won’t answer the question because you know the answer..? Your logic is flawed and makes no sense. Typical though, these regurgitated talking points are not unusual ;)
  - hpcjoe 4y ago
    Typical lefty argument. Introduce a non-sequitur straw-man and make arguments attempting to divert discussion there when you know you've lost the argument. This discussion, again, is not about Ukraine. It's about the propaganda piece mis-published here on HN, and the commentary that followed. Some are reasonable points, others are repeating narratives that are not supported by facts, but make for nice soundbites, to replace reasonable arguments. A simple proposal for fixing the real issue. 1) arabs who lived in Israel accept that their side lost, multiple times, and make peace with Israel. 2) Israel welcomes new peaceful citizens back in. #1 won't happen before #2, and given how long and hard arabs have fought the very existence of Israel, I doubt many Israelis are open to considering any re-integration. That is literally all it would take to get peace. Which means, it will never happen. Until then, we all recognize the narratives for what they are.
    - ethotool 4y ago
      I didn’t expect you to actually answer it because I know it’s complicated. I’m just pointing out your hypocrisy. Not everyone hates Jews. How can anyone express their frustrations with what’s happening to the Palestinians without you accusing them of disliking Jews? Do you expect us to just accept what’s happening and remain silent?
- tarakat 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - hpcjoe 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - tarakat 4y ago
      [flagged]
      - dang 4y ago
        Please don't perpetuate hellish flamewars on HN. It's exactly what this site is not for—regardless of how wrong some people are or you feel they are. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
    - dang 4y ago
      Please don't perpetuate hellish flamewars on HN. It's exactly what this site is not for—regardless of how wrong some people are or you feel they are. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.

zen_1 4y ago

Defending themselves from a genocide in Europe by ethnically cleansing Palestinians? You have a curious way of defining defense.

hpcjoe 4y ago
Comparing the plight of the arabs to the holocaust is a terrible injustice to the real holocaust victims. One group was systematically hunted down, murdered for who they were, assets stolen and distributed with legal fights going on to this day to recover them, children and women slaughtered for the joy of their tormentors .... to people who were ordered to flee their homes by their leaders, and then denied re-entry by the new political entity. One of these things is completely, absolutely different than the other.
- ethotool 4y ago
  Not really. Sounds exactly like what the Israelis have been doing to the Palestinians since they confiscated their lands.
  - hpcjoe 4y ago
    So ... let me get this straight. You are happily comparing industrial scale extermination, tossing babies into the air and catching them on bayonets, digging gold from murdered peoples mouths ... to ... the voluntary evacuation of a land at war? You are really doing this? Seriously?
- jacooper 4y ago
  Are you kidding me? > to people who were ordered to flee their homes by their leaders, and then denied re-entry by the new political entity.. Whats happening in Palestine is people "ordered to leave their homes" and then because of "political entity" can't return??? If you want to say the removal of rights to return to your own land, you house getting destroyed and losing all your belongings, children, Innocent people and Journalists getting killed everyday, illegal arrests and the Third holliest mosque in Islam getting regularly attacked, are all because of a "polticial entity", Than one can argue the Holocaust was also because of a "Political entity" that was voted in by people. Now that we apply this weird logic to the Holocaust it suddenly doesn't work huh?

jacooper 4y ago

And what do Palestinians have to do with that? Jews came as refugees to Palestine in 1940s, and they were welcomed, just like how Christians and Muslims live in peace in Palestine. Its an extremely important land for all ibrahimic religions. But you don't come as a refuge, then turn as an occupation because "oh they did it to me so I need to do it to you so I can be safe!!!"

dang 4y ago

Please don't use HN for political/ideological/national/racial/religious battle. It leads to hellish flamewars. We don't want those here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

banannaise 4y ago