4 ms·

The internet is overwhelmingly filled with low quality tribalism, and one common format is "woe is me, the rational conservative underdog, shouted down and cens

The internet is overwhelmingly filled with low quality tribalism, and one common format is "woe is me, the rational conservative underdog, shouted down and censored by the evil West coast elites", and of course the many politically reversed examples. I think people on HN are understandably jumpy about keeping that kind of stuff off HN, even though they may jump the gun sometimes and unfairly lump in things that merely smell like that, and aren't necessarily going in that direction yet. And, while your observation probably does correspond with the political direction that such action leans, I've seen tons of cases of what I think are "jump the gun" downvotes from both directions.

zozbot234 4y ago
The problem is the double standard. It's only ever conservatives who are criticized for this kind of pointless politicking and tribalism, while it goes unchallenged from the other side.
- Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
  Conservatives get criticized for tribalism more than the left because they're simply so much more tribal. All you have to do is look at how many Trump flags you still see compared to Biden flags. Also, believe or not, the far left dislikes Biden.
  - happytoexplain 4y ago
    Agreed - the accusation of tribalism may be unfairly over-applied in many cases, like most political criticisms, but, also like many political criticisms, it is extrapolated from an opinion that is more reasonable (regardless of whether it is definitely true), which is that conservatives have, on par, too much party loyalty, and liberals have, on par, too little party loyalty.
    - Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
      > and liberals have, on par, too little party loyalty. My knee-jerk reaction is "this is a good thing", but this is wrong. The left's lack of party loyalty costs us elections. The farther left hates the "Vote blue no matter who" mantra, which allowed Trump to win 2016. The right votes red no matter what because they think every democrat is a socialist.
- tptacek 4y ago
  No, it's not only conservatives who are criticized. You just notice it when they are. Your brain has a finite capacity for keeping score on this kind of stuff; this is one of the tricks it plays on you to keep you from being anxious about that.
  - Chris2048 4y ago
    Interesting that this comment has two replies: yours: "they aren't criticised more, this is bias of observation on your part" other comment: "that's b/c they are more tribal!" Observation bias exists, but that doesn't mean there isn't a moderation bias, one way or another. However, I think the distinction of "conservative" is maybe a red-herring - it invites tribalism. As an example, I think people refusing to wear mandated COVID masks are provocative/incorrect. I also believe the authorities (gov and media/corps) are incorrect, and actively biasing scientific discourse. So, is my opinion conservative, or not?
    - tptacek 4y ago
      I don't know what you're asking, but my reply isn't ideologically specific. It applies just as well to liberals. I'm specifically not saying either side is more tribal; I'm saying that we have cognitive biases that make us sensitive to corrections of opinions we agree with, and insensitive to corrections of opinions we disagree with.
      - Chris2048 4y ago
        But you didn't say there might be cognitive bias. You stated there was, and implied there is no such bias on HN? I'm not so sure. My question was to imply - there may be talking points, or "biases" considered conservative/liberal, but this is an ambiguous thing. Often, full perspectives are a mixture of both, but people might still be censored on the "perception" of their tribe, or on individual points. As such, the perceived tribes are not a useful distinction to make.
        tptacek 4y ago
ptero 4y ago
The internet is overwhelmingly filled with echo chambers. And there was, earlier, a special care taken for HN to avoid this fate and create a site where minority views can be debated. PG wrote a lot about the need to allow and protect non-standard opinions even if we sometimes find them uncomfortable. This view influenced choices at the earlier HN. Such content does not have to rise to the top of the page -- posts bubble down quickly in the absence of upvotes. But if, when it does (because enough people were interested in reading and commenting on it), it gets killed by flagging instead of a debate on merits we nudge HN in the direction of becoming yet another echo chamber. And a path toward becoming another echo chamber on the internet leads to a quicker irrelevance than most contributors realize. My 2c.

zozbot234 4y ago

The problem is the double standard. It's only ever conservatives who are criticized for this kind of pointless politicking and tribalism, while it goes unchallenged from the other side.

Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
Conservatives get criticized for tribalism more than the left because they're simply so much more tribal. All you have to do is look at how many Trump flags you still see compared to Biden flags. Also, believe or not, the far left dislikes Biden.
- happytoexplain 4y ago
  Agreed - the accusation of tribalism may be unfairly over-applied in many cases, like most political criticisms, but, also like many political criticisms, it is extrapolated from an opinion that is more reasonable (regardless of whether it is definitely true), which is that conservatives have, on par, too much party loyalty, and liberals have, on par, too little party loyalty.
  - Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
    > and liberals have, on par, too little party loyalty. My knee-jerk reaction is "this is a good thing", but this is wrong. The left's lack of party loyalty costs us elections. The farther left hates the "Vote blue no matter who" mantra, which allowed Trump to win 2016. The right votes red no matter what because they think every democrat is a socialist.
tptacek 4y ago
No, it's not only conservatives who are criticized. You just notice it when they are. Your brain has a finite capacity for keeping score on this kind of stuff; this is one of the tricks it plays on you to keep you from being anxious about that.
- Chris2048 4y ago
  Interesting that this comment has two replies: yours: "they aren't criticised more, this is bias of observation on your part" other comment: "that's b/c they are more tribal!" Observation bias exists, but that doesn't mean there isn't a moderation bias, one way or another. However, I think the distinction of "conservative" is maybe a red-herring - it invites tribalism. As an example, I think people refusing to wear mandated COVID masks are provocative/incorrect. I also believe the authorities (gov and media/corps) are incorrect, and actively biasing scientific discourse. So, is my opinion conservative, or not?
  - tptacek 4y ago
    I don't know what you're asking, but my reply isn't ideologically specific. It applies just as well to liberals. I'm specifically not saying either side is more tribal; I'm saying that we have cognitive biases that make us sensitive to corrections of opinions we agree with, and insensitive to corrections of opinions we disagree with.
    - Chris2048 4y ago
      But you didn't say there might be cognitive bias. You stated there was, and implied there is no such bias on HN? I'm not so sure. My question was to imply - there may be talking points, or "biases" considered conservative/liberal, but this is an ambiguous thing. Often, full perspectives are a mixture of both, but people might still be censored on the "perception" of their tribe, or on individual points. As such, the perceived tribes are not a useful distinction to make.
      - tptacek 4y ago

ptero 4y ago

The internet is overwhelmingly filled with echo chambers. And there was, earlier, a special care taken for HN to avoid this fate and create a site where minority views can be debated. PG wrote a lot about the need to allow and protect non-standard opinions even if we sometimes find them uncomfortable. This view influenced choices at the earlier HN. Such content does not have to rise to the top of the page -- posts bubble down quickly in the absence of upvotes. But if, when it does (because enough people were interested in reading and commenting on it), it gets killed by flagging instead of a debate on merits we nudge HN in the direction of becoming yet another echo chamber. And a path toward becoming another echo chamber on the internet leads to a quicker irrelevance than most contributors realize. My 2c.